July MBY

I think jfm explained that. When you pull the bow lines in on a Med stern to mooring, either with the winch or by hand, you need to clamp each line tight as you make it off around the cleat and with the Sq65 arrangement it's impossible to do that. The cleats need to be further inboard and the lines fed thru fairleads. Normally you would clamp the line with your foot as it passes thru the fairlead
Similarly the aft cleats have no fairlead either. Again with a stern to mooring, depending how the bollards are positioned on the quay behind, the stern lines may rub against the gelcoat. If you you use crossed stern lines as well, as most boats do, without a fairlead, the lines will cut across the corners of the cockpit.
Overall it's a very poor design particularly since I understand jfm advised them at the design stage to change it. So much for Fairline's much vaunted attention to detail
 
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But what's wrong with the cleats? There are two on the gunwale, and two on the foredeck (one each side of the shank of the anchor)

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If that's so, then fine. I didn't see the foredeck cleats and they were certainly not on the earlier detailed drawings. Mind you, I think I'd then prefer fairleads not cleats on the gunwhale!

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And the aft cleats (on the sloping bits each side of the transom) are about as far aft as they could be got, short of putting them on the bathing platform.

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Yeah but that's still a poor job imho. I have those same aft cleats on the sloping bit on my Sq58. You can't use those cleats as your main med mooring cleats because they have no winches, and they're not as strong. They're also not great for med crossed lines, because the lines foul the tender. The boat still needs big fairleads aft of the winches imho, as fitted by s'seeker and Princess, and just about every Italian builder
 
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Yep, the p67 foredeck is just right.

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm.... Just seen this thread, but I'm not sure that the arrangement in Hurricane pics is the best for the purpose you're talking about, 'cause the capstan is aft of the cleats.
Below is a pic of my foredeck: the cleats are aft of the capstan, which means that you can recover the ground line already twisted around the cleat. That makes much easier the subsequent cleating of the tail end once taken off the capstan, without loosing tension. I'd rather use someone else's foot to secure a tensioned, untwisted, heavy ground line. All imho, as always.
Winch.jpg
 
Hmm I saw the Squaddie 65 article only observations were thats it was too dark inside the main cabin, certaint whne compared with the Sealine Aura 60.

Also when viewed from the side it does not like a 65 footer, not inspiring at all in my opinion, fairly plain.

If you look at a Man 64 side view and compare you will see what I mean.

Even the later SS60 doesnt look as impressive as the Man 64, looks too tall

all IMHO of course
 
I don't think I understand your point Mapis. I prefer the p67 layout (same as my sq58 ). We are talking about picking up and attaching groundlines, right, when you arrive at your berth? Jettisoning the GL is easy - you just throw it in the sea

When you lick up a groundline, you must lead it around the aft of your cleat else it will slip off the capstan, right? Which is worse, imho, I mean I would rather take the line straiught from the fairlead to the capstan, without a 90deg bend around a cleat (which adds friction)

Either way you need a foot. On yours, after you have the tension in the ground line, you surely have to hold the line with a foot as you take the line off the capstan and attach it to the cleat, don't you?

Or am I completely misunderstanding?! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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On yours, after you have the tension in the ground line, you surely have to hold the line with a foot as you take the line off the capstan and attach it to the cleat, don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]Yep, no misunderstanding at all.
That's exactly the moment when my layout is preferable imho: it's easier to hold a heavy and tensioned line with a foot between the fairlead and the cleat, if you can help maintaining the tension also with your hands.
And obviously the hands can do that more effectively when the line is already bent around the cleat (actually at even more than 90°, more likely to be 130° or so), which also allows for a quicker and easier twisting.
You should imagine the same maneuver you're describing, but made while looking aft rather than forward. Useful also if you need to shout at swmbo when she makes some mess with the stern lines, but that's another story... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

You're right though, that adds friction while licking up the line, but so what? The capstan never complained! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Ah, ok I understand. Yes I see your point, the layout in your pic is better, I can now see.

On a smaller boat (mine for sure) you can't do this facing astern because there isnt enough room for your bum, so you would want the capstan aft of the cleat, so you could pull it with your hands to keep tension in it. That would usually mean just a 70deg bend around the cleat, but that's ok

Sorry, my "licking up" the ground line was a typo. I meant "picking up". Qwerty keyboard. I think a groundline is the very last thing I'd want to lick :-)
 
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Sorry, my "licking up" the ground line was a typo. I meant "picking up". Qwerty keyboard. I think a groundline is the very last thing I'd want to lick :-)

[/ QUOTE ]See? my English is nowhere as good as you once told me it is!!!
Would you believe that I assumed it was a technical/nautical term for the line recovery?
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Re. the layout, it's not just a matter of boat size (mine is actually some 5 feet shorter than yours), but rather of boat type. A spacious and properly arranged foredeck is rather common in displacement trawlers.
I guess it has to see with the fact that for any given LOA, the weight is typically much higher compared to a planing boat (mine frinstance is not far from 40T when loaded). And when maneuvering, weight matters even more than size.
 
I've just compared the photo of the P67 foredeck with the S65.

On their foredecks, the cleats/winch/anchor positions are virtually identical.

The P67 has fairleads on the bulwarks, where the S65 has cleats. But the S65 has a centreline fairlead where the P67 has nothing at all.

I take the point about sloping cleats: they aren't ideal. But on the S65, the winches on the quarters are about a foot from the point at which the deck moulding starts to curve downwards towards the bathing platform. There certainly isn't room for cleats behind the winches, but there are cleats immediately ahead of them.
 
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But the S65 has a centreline fairlead

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Are you sure - maybe I've missunderstood you.

I thought that the point was that when making fast the bow lines of a "Med style" mooring, you need to use the winch and then cleat off after freeing the winch.

The S65 seems from the photos to have the cleats under the rails which would, IMO, make it very difficult to do - certainly without leaning over the side.

As far as the stern is concerned, this is the P67's arrangement.

IMG_4606Medium.jpg
 
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I've just compared the photo of the P67 foredeck with the S65. On their foredecks, the cleats/winch/anchor positions are virtually identical.

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Do you have a photo of Sq65 showing foredeck cleats in same position as p67's? All I can see is Sq65 cleats right on the edge of the gunwhale

Re aft quarters, I can't work out if you're praising or condemning Fairline, but it seems to me obvious that they should fit a corner fairlead, like the two princesses in Hurricane's picture above. I just can't see any excuse for not doing this. Then the cleat/winch can be located wherever convenient. The fairline fairlead-less set up is a PITA for med stern-to crossed line mooring imho
 
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I thought that the point was that when making fast the bow lines of a "Med style" mooring, you need to use the winch and then cleat off after freeing the winch.

[/ QUOTE ]Yup, that was the point. But actually I wouldn't say "need" re. the winch use for bow lines.
In fact (and in spite of what I said earlier re. having a convenient foredeck setup), my preferred method upon arrival to a med mooring is as follows:
1) reverse the boat near enough to the dock to pick up the bow line and throw a stern line, but staying reasonably far (3 meters or so)from the the dock;
2) secure the ground line with as much tension as possible by hand;
3) use winches to recover stern lines.
If the boat gets too near to the dock, release the stern lines as much as necessary to further tighten the bow line and repeat (3).
Obviously, this is easier and faster in your own mooring, 'cause you can use some tape on the ground line(s) and secure them at the right lenght on the spot.

And since I'm having a slow day, I tried to find a pic of the Sq65 foredeck.
FL site has one from which I grabbed the following detail.
It seems to me that there's a centerline fairlead (above the anchor chain), and there are a couple of cleats also on the deck, each side of the winch. If so, jfm suggestions must have been considered. In fact, it's funny that the drawings of the arrangements (on the very same FL site) show no cleats in the foredeck, only the ones on the edge of the gunwhale.
Sq65.jpg
 
Yup, but in some moorings it is much easier to use the winch than do it by hand. Depends on the mooring. In mine, even if the stern is say 4-5m off the dock, to pull the bow lines up to the correct point (marked as you say) involves lifting what feels like 100kg of ground line chain. Twice! The chain in my berth comes close to the boat. A winch is much faster/easier

Thanks for pic. If fairline have done that I wonder why they didn't use fairleads instead of cleats on the gunwhale. They expect you to use the fairlead on the point of the bow I suppose. So long as it is big enough to hold 4 (not 2) lengths of 25mm diameter ground line (is it?) it'll be fine
 
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I wonder why they didn't use fairleads instead of cleats on the gunwhale.

[/ QUOTE ]Dunno their reasons, but cleats make sense anyway imho.
My boat has a similar arrangement, as per above pic, and I find it more flexible.
I mean, you can use the cleats as fairleads, but not the other way round.
Of course when mooring properly I always secure the ground lines to the main/bigger deck cleats, with the line passing through the gunwhale cleats, which in this case actually work as fairleads.
But occasionally (temporary mooring for fuel, rib tied on the bow) the smaller cleats are more than enough, and can be reached also from outside the boat. Fairleads wouldn't allow that.

No idea about the size of the centerline fairlead on the Sq65, the pic is taken from FL website and it's a detail of a bigger one, but the resolution wasn't any better in the original. In any case, I guess that also with such rigging it's possible to use the gunwhale cleats as I just described.

Re. your berth, geeze!
I only had the chain very close to the bow a couple of times in Croatian waters, where they would stuck a 20 meters boat in a 20 feet berth... And the chain entered the water almost perpendicularly. Thanks God weather was fine!
 
Yes, thank you, I do have photos of the Squadron 65... I just can't figure out how to attach the damn things to posts on the forum! If anyone really wants them, send me a private message (or through the feedback page on my website), and I'll email them to you.

FWIW, I've had plenty of arguments with boatbuilders over the size or location of cleats and fairleads in the past, but I don't think I've ever come across one who has been stupid enough to put a winch on a foredeck without a cleat available to take the rope that you've just winched in. So, with all respect, I don't think anyone on this forum can really take the credit for having told Fairline how to do it!
Best regards
 
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I don't think anyone on this forum can really take the credit for having told Fairline how to do it!

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm.... Why not?
If jfm says that he told them all this in writing at the design stage, you can bet he did.
And aside from that, the arrangements drawings on Fairline site clearly show a foredeck with just gunwhales cleats and no fairleads. Weird coincidence, isn't it?
 
He may well have told them. So might many other people.
But that doesn't mean they hadn't thought of it all on their own, before he mentioned it.

The idea that a boat needs to be tied up and anchored occasionally is hardly rocket science, is it?

And the arrangement drawings on the Fairline website also show the boat with no generator. Really stupid mistake that: everyone knows you can't run the aircon or an electric cooker off batteries. But somebody must have told them, because they somehow managed find just enough spare space in the engineroom to be able to squeeze in a generator. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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He may well have told them. So might many other people.
But that doesn't mean they hadn't thought of it all on their own, before he mentioned it.

[/ QUOTE ]Ahem. Now you accept that he may have told them, but previously you didn't think anyone on this forum can really take the credit for having told Fairline.
That's all I was trying to point out, 'cause in my understanding nobody tried to take any credit for themselves.
And when I said that jfm suggestions must have been considered, that was my assumption, not his.
Which might well be wrong: of course they could have thought of it on their own.
Or maybe not, I don't know. Do you?

BUT - and this is another chapter - since you insist that no builder can be stupid enough to make obvious mistakes like cleats misplacement and so forth:
1) you would expect a brand new boat like the Squadron 55 to cruise properly, but she actually has an awful skypointing bow attitude. Possibly, nobody told them that the crew should be able to move fore and aft while cruising, without using climbing ropes;
2) similarly, you'd expect the Manhattan 70 to reach the declared max speed, not 10 kts less. Maybe nobody told them that customers expect to get what is written on the tin.
3) when a custom steel trawler is designed from scratch with bilge keels, to protect the stabilizers and to allow the boat to be beached intentionally, you don't expect her to have so big steering issues upon the first sea trial to force the builder to completely remove the keels, loosing both the fins protection and the grounding capability, do you?

I could go on, but I'm sure that if - as you say - you had plenty of arguments with boatbuilders, you surely know that stupid mistakes can and do happen, for both minor and major design issues. And much more often than we boaters come to know of them.
 
What you seem to be saying is that prior knowledge counts for nothing. So if I tell you that grass is green, or that you will get wet if you fall in water, can I take credit for the fact that you now know these things -- and extrapolate from that to the assumption that you must have been ignorant of them before I told you?

And yes, I entirely accept that everyone makes mistakes, and that prototypes almost always have teething troubles. But here we have a boat being slagged off for a design "fault" which doesn't exist except in someone's imagination.

Shall we start on the criticism of the boat's too-low radar arch next? It hasn't actually got a radar arch (it's got a twin mast arrangement on the centreline ) -- but hey what does that matter?
 
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