July MBY

Point taken. The article majors on ways of avoiding paying VAT on new boats and perhaps should have been titled 'How to avoid paying VAT on your new boat' rather than 'Explaining VAT'. There are a couple of Q's about used boat purchases and I thought some explanation of why VAT evidence would be required on a VAT paid used boat purchase would have been useful. After all, the vast majority of boat sales are for used boats
 
all spot on
I think is shame for the cleats and really this is not the first 20 metre FL built so I wonder how they need you to tell them this....
shame is bigger when they did not listen so I hope they make these changes, this is not a small boat and should be really how you say
white table, versus teak I am surprised as on concsuis level this attracts me a lot to the small 38 Targa, why not make it on a 65 Squadron I dont know (owners choice may be)
radar arch I think I can understand a bit Fline here
a sleeker radar arch along with a full beam mid ship cabin would have made your 58 Squadron a top seller in its size getting close to the 400 plus deliveris AZ managed with the 55 in its original and Evolution version but to each his own I think
bathing platfrom tender with hi and low is the way to go many other builders going this route Azimut, Dominator, Sunseeker was first EU mainstream builder doing this, I have seen it first on an Otam 55 in 1999 in Genoa but I think Sea Ray did this first
worth also to note that the comparison on with the Princess 67 can be a difficult win as the bathing platfrom on the P67 is also not small and can take another tender or jet bike, making the space for 2 toys availablilty not a bad move on a 67 feet
not many 20/21 metre can manage two toys, Maiora 20/20S can do this if you order it with the garage to fore or S version with bigger platform aft, and Ferretti 68/680/681 can manage 3
interesting also what you said about the insulation, I know Azimut is experimerimenting a lot on cores for better insulations too, but I am sure they will not give up there pride for the full beam cabin altough a sales man did tell me that noise on the 43S and 47 is much less in the fore cabin versus a standard boat
 
Yup, and actually there's loads more that could have been said. Fact is, it got cut down to fit into the page count that had been allocated. Though having now seen it in the flesh the Getty image of the geek with lawyery textbooks could have been binned to make more space, for starters.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Yup, there is an "each to his own" here. I like the central arch on the Sq58 becuase I want the area divided into 2 zones, just imho. And I agree a central owners cabin is better than a front cabin, but given the choice of JUST a central cabin or BOTH a front cabin and a utility room, which is what you get at 60feet, I'll take the latter!

I agree the up/down platform is what the market wants. A pity, imho. I'd rather have an extra 1.3m of hull, more seaworthy, then a crane to launch the tender. Ho hum

I take your point on the 2 toys. Now, if FL had kept the central radar mast on Sq65 they could have offered a choice of sunbeds on the aft part of the fly, or jetskis. Like of the Sq70.

All these things mean compromises. The Maiora solution involves very limited size for the tender in the front garage, a PITA to launch the tender, and quite a high profile to the foredeck -pretty ugly, just imho
 
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Yup, and actually there's loads more that could have been said. Fact is, it got cut down to fit into the page count that had been allocated. Though having now seen it in the flesh the Getty image of the geek with lawyery textbooks could have been binned to make more space, for starters....

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I thought you'd aged a bit... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Squaddie 65 then

Just a quick point about the size - this is the largest boat you can fit into a 20m by 5.25m berth - good choice of size and one of the reasons that we bought the Princess 67 which as I say above is pretty much exactly the same overall size.

So, here are my views after having used a similar sized boat for just over a year and having also put her through her paces - so to speak.

The new use of glass. Personally, I didnt like it but SWMBO read the article and thought it a great idea, especially in the forward cabin. Boats of this size are still small enough to suffer from the "slap and tickle" that you get from a forward cabin so I agree that the main cabin should not ne in the bow if possible. But the use of glass in this area is quite adventurous - even if it does look a bit strange.

Glass in the crews quarters - From my point of view, the crews quarters is just an extra room which may get some occasional use as a cabin but more than not is becomes, as was said the the article, a second lazerette. Tell that to Jez though!!! - No joking asside, we didnt buy the 67 because of a crew cabin. So with the Squaddie and a crews cabin with lots of light - would it be used more? - I think not. On the other hand, the article doesnt say what they have done to the starboard bathing platform gate. IMO, a boat of this size MUST have access to the cockpit both sides - even out old 50 foot Sealine had two gates from the bathing platform. Maybe Fairline have done something clever here but it isnt clear.

So to the foredeck
I'm no expert in Med style berthing - and thats an understatememt!! However, what little we've done of it I fully agree with jfm here - some of these groundlines are very heavy and need to be pulled onto the foredeck before attaching them to the cleats - just ask djefabs or Jimmy_the_Builder - here are a couple of pics of the P67 arrangement

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I'm the wrong person to ask about internal decor. I'm old fasioned - I like round corners and natural wood finishes. But all the builders are going for this modern look so there's nothing new or wrong here. Ans as for the colour inside the lockers - it just isnt on my shopping list.

So now to the Flybridge.
I have to disagree strongly with you on this one, jfm.
The whole feel of the Squaddie FB is too exposed - stick a nice (old fasioned) radar arch on top and it would be better but if you are going to do some serious cruising, you have to feel safe up there. Those of you that were on the boat from Sardinia to Menorca will tell you that. We experienced wind of only about F7 - and on the rear quarter. The boat handled it well but some of the crew found it quite un-nerving, surfing down large waves on what amounts to a 50 ton surfboard. IMO it would have been really frightening on the exposed FB of the SQ65.

Oh yes - the dinghy storage - on a boat of this size - definately up top. JW has done nearly 4000 miles in the last year and most of the time we have forgotten that we even had a dinghy. If it had been on the bathing platform we would have been tripping over it all the time. Apart from that, it stays cleaner and safer out of the way.

So what about the space that it takes - well - judge for yourself - here's a vidoe clip of life on the FB of the 67 under way.



You are right about the table - the P67 has this wrong as well - a flimsy plastic one - a nice strong one like Nick has fitted to his 57 would be MUCH better. The plastic one does drop to form a sunpad but it still could be in teak though.

Laundry
Yes you're correct - it does build up a bit but SWMBO has the answer - give it to the marina to launder whe you get back!!!
Having said that we have started using our washing machine ourselves recently as well and as you say the dirty washing piles up in the companionway. I dont think I'd give up the third bathroom for a laundry room though - probably throw it down in the crews quarters before that - sorry Jez. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (You may have gathered that the crews quarters became Jez's home on our return trip)

Yep - I'd second the option for MTU's - they would also get more HP in the space but may have to sacrifice the nice engine room trays to get them in. Our MTUs have hardly missed a beat. There were two false alarms on the initial delivery to Swanwick before our handover and we had a worrying alarm off the Portugese coast when the port engine decided to run in safety mode whilst still synchronised with the starboard engine. Having now done the MTU engineering course, I have since found that we were running the engines incorrectly. They are twin turbo units and we were running them at the point where the second stage turbo was constantly cutting in and out. There are sensors everywhere and a small turbo overun had been detected on the port engine so the electronic management system took over control and ran it at about two thirds power until we could reset the system 5 minutes later. Since then we have done over 2500 miles without a peep and I should also add - without any servicing either - they run for 2 years or 500 hours between services. These engines are really the tops and Fairline should offer them as an option.

Couple of more obvious points on the SQ65

No internal Flybridge stairs - we have discussed this before - why do they all do it? If you seriously cruise your boat as we have done, you wonder how you ever managed without them.

The main cabin
Why oh why put the bed that way round?
There are so many other smaller boats with the bed in the middle so space cant be an issue - it is a MUST to get this cabin right.
On long passages, and when the sea is rough, this is, by far, the best place to be - putting the bed against the side would just make it more uncomfortable that necessary. Maybe its because I'm old fasioned but the main cabin on a boat like this HAS to be right.

OK so thats my initial thoughts after reading the MBY article - I will definately be having a look when I visit the next exhibition but for me, the P67 is streets ahead.

BTW the comparason Princess 67 at the end of the article is JennyWren pictured before we left the Solent.
 
Yep, the p67 foredeck is just right. I know your StC berth is more UK style mike, but in normal med berthing you winch up a ground line with the capstan, put your foot on it twixt fairlead and cleat, then take the tail end off the capstan and cleat it, then remove your foot. Easy peezy. But not on a Sq65!

And yes I agree 2 transom gates is a must. I think they have got kinda 1.5 on the Sq65. A full gate to port, and a crew cabin hatch to starboard which is moulded so you can climb over it easily. I have some detailed pics that I promised not to post here and I'd want to try it out - I think it might need tweaking designwise, but if they get it right it'll be ok, imho

I take your point on exposed flybr Mike. I'd want to walk on the Sq65 to see how it feels. A radar arch of some sort, whether p67 or Sq58 stlye helps, as it forms a massive handhold. Also when the bimini is up it makes things feel much more secure because of all the tubing/scaffolding

Internal flybr stairs: yes, 100% agreed among many on this forum. Alas many builders don't agree, pity

On the laundry thing, with the Sq65 you wouldn't be trading a third bathroom for a laundry room. you'd be trading a day heads. Each of the 4 cabins still has its own shower room. Does that change your view? Do you want a day head/5th WC more than a laundry room on a 65/67 footer?

On laundry generally of course it's each to their own and depends how you use the boat. I want the laundry done on the boat not at a marina and the ability to do it at sea or away ports. Anyway the price for a premium laundry service for Heirlooms stuff on the Cote D'Azur would make you weep - easily €300 for 3 cabins worth of beds and towels. Swim towels are being done all the time. I may be wrong statistically but I'd think most Sq65s would be full time crewed, in which case the crew person does the laundry and ironing and makes all the beds and sorts out the towels. That person needs a utility room in which to do that, and which can be shut off to avoid the sight of pile of washing and keep the noise of washer/tumbler running perhaps 6 hours a day. With a heavily used boat you also need a steam ironing press not an ordinary iron, and that needs some room, but I'd better shut up now or you'll think I'm mad :-)

Still on the crew cabin thing though, you regard it as an unimportant space (sorry Jez), but many buyers dont. Good crew are in demand and will often choose a boat based partly on their living conditions. If good crew is important to your boating then a great crew cabin is a sound investment. If not, then not. These days even in this size range you're competing with stuff like manhattan 70 which has a fantastic crew cabin with transom window. so I think Fairline are right to get this right and put the big windows in

All imho
 
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Once you've been teleported to planet Sq65/Prin67/etc you just need a laundry to survive in the world. :-)

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Yeah, and going back to your dayboat after just a week is one hell of a bump /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nice video mike, and with regard to the flybridge, the devilishly handsom bloke taking 5 on your rear seats looks very comfy /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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bloke taking 5 on your rear seats looks very comfy /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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He's just grateful for his 30minutes that he's allowed out of the crew cabin I reckon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mike do you always run with the bimini folded? Mine stay deployed pretty much the whole summer, including when underway, apart from very occasionally when I might fold them away at either end of the season to catch a bit more heat from the sun.

You guys must be more sunworshipping than me /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I spend so long on the flybr I get worried about too much sun, hence biminis always deployed
 
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He's just grateful for his 30minutes that he's allowed out of the crew cabin I reckon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Probably not wrong /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Mike do you always run with the bimini folded?

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Always - to date anyway.

It acts as a huge sail and I darent think what it does to the fuel consumption. It is strong enough though.

However I'm expecting my cruising to be much more sedate certainly for the rest of the season and will probably do more of the kind of thing that I believe you do. Some overnight low speed cruises when the sea is much calmer and everyone's gone to bed. This way, the bimini could stay up.

It isnt a problem though because, despite what others on here think, it is very quick to put up and down. We had a bit of a fight at the begining of the season when we took the winter cover off and attached the bimini itself but it is quite quick (now that its set up for the season) to put it up and down.
 
FWIW, I thought the bimini on my boat would act like a parachute at 20kts but, in actual fact, there's no noticeable difference in speed with the bimini up or down. Mine usually goes up during our Whitsun half term trip and stays up until our October half term trip although this year, the weather wasn't good enough at Whitsun to warrant the bimini. I have folded the bimini on a couple of occasions when we've faced passages in particularly windy conditions
 
I have now read the Squaddie 65 article. I think I know why the foredeck cleats don't suit meddy mooring and that's because you would never, ever berth it stern-to owing to the sheer horror of the acres-of-white-grp, DIY extension bolted on to the back (I can't quite bring myself to call it a stern).

Geez, the rear view of this boat has all the charm of an abortion. And those back windows, pur-lease. Yes, they let light in but I don't want to walk along the dock in Portofino and watch a deckie shagging the stew through a B&Q conservatory window. Whatever happened to the idea of servants being kept out of sight?

The interior is, bad, bad, bad. It may be an innovative use of space but it's a derivative use of materials which have mostly come from a time warp called the early nineties. Those square section chromed legs on the low tables haven't been used by anyone who can even spell contemporary since the pre-release edition of wallpaper*.

And the owner's and VIP cabins. Dear God, they're straight out of Spearmint Rhino with that ghastly low level purple lighting and booth lights. And it's not even done with a sense of irony.

The fly looks like a big, boring area of nothing with a cheapy plastic table as the only focus.

I also didn't like the hull colour but I suppose that's personal choice.

About the only thing I really liked on the whole boat was the seat-back hoops on the driver's and driver's only friend's seats on the fly. Even then I thought there should have been three not two seats.

In fact, I've spoken to the HM at St Trop this morning and he has confirmed that that boat is too fugly to be allowed to moor in his harbour except in emergency, in which circumstance I have promised that, if he calls I will drop what I am doing and fly down to help him tow the thing out to sea and sink it.
 
Well well well
Another old fasioned guy.

Actually, though, I think jfm does make the good points very well.
It seems that this size of boat is knocking on the doors of those that have perminant skippers. Noy my idea of boating - If I'm going to spend this kind of money on a boat, I certainly want to drive it, be the skipper and not give all the fun to someone else.
 
Sq65

I too read the test article last night and broadly speaking I agree with you and Hurricane. I wouldn't call the boat ugly but it's just looks plain IMHO except for the crew cab and foredeck windows which look badly integrated, even like an afterthought although the foredeck window concept I like. The saloon windows look very small to my eye and go against the general trend in the industry for more panoramic saloon windows. In fact, the overall look of the boat reminds me of those Colvic based designs that Admiral produced in the 1990's
jfm has already identified the bow cleat problem but the stern cleats are just as big a problem for stern to moorings. They're much too far forward and without fairleads, the stern lines will rub against the cockpit coaming and if cross stern lines are used as well, they will pass over the cockpit which is stupid. You can't use the cleats adjacent to the bathing platform because the tender will interfere with the lines. Overall, the bow and stern cleats are incredibly badly designed for Med stern to mooring.
I agree with Hurricane on the FB. It looks to be too exposed; the coamings and guardrails are too low especially aft. They have done this to reduce the overall height of the boat for style reasons (like Ferretti). I have the same issue on my boat and you don't feel particularly safe on the FB in a rolly sea. Princess FB's are generally considerably better in this respect. I wouldn't argue about the grp table as it's a lot easier to keep clean although a fiddle would be good. I also agree with Hurricane that the lack of internal FB steps is a big minus point especially on a boat as large as this. Why Fairline have done this, I cannot understand. Personally I agree with the decision to put the tender on the bathing platform and not just because it lowers. IMHO, having the weight of the tender high up on the FB is not ideal, it eats into the FB loafing space and you need 2 peeps to launch it, one to operate the crane and one to stop the tender swinging through the saloon windows
Inside, personally I like the dark wood lapdance club look although, like Hurricane, I prefer rounded edges because they're safer if you bash against them. In fact some of the square edges seen on modern boats could take your eye out in a fall. I think fitting 4 heads on a 3 cabin boat is just plain daft, even if 1 is a day heads. As jfm says, 1 should be a utility room. Then I don't like the master cabin; as Hurricane points out, the bed should always be on the centre line to minimize movement and there seem to be steps up to either side which you are just bound to fall over in a drunken stupor at night when you're trying to locate the heads. As for the crew cabin windows, they look stupid and I can't imagine why any crew would want to display themselves to every passer by on the quay behind and, if you're going to use the crew cabin as a storage glory hole, do you want everyone to see the mess down there?
Without actually seeing the boat, it's easy to be critical but I see nothing in the MBY report to justify the gushing praise lavished by David Marsh but then the prime objective of boat tests these days is not to offend your advertisers
 
Re: Sq65

Tender

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and you need 2 peeps to launch it,

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Actually Mike, the tender is very easy to launch and recover. It looks quite a precarious operation when you first do it but we had a crane failure when the boat was first delivered and I had the crane manufacturers on teh boat for the best part of a whole day - dinghy up, down, left, right, you mention it we did it. The result was that I'm now really confident in it swinging around and would be happy to launch it in quite a large swell. The technique is to hold the dinghy painter so that you keep the engine furthest away from the boat. It launches on the starboard aft quarter - no windows nearby and if it were to knock into the boat it would only be the dinghy's tubes anyway. As you know, I opted for a Walker Bay with a big engine - the whole lot is about two thirds the weight of a JetRib. Maybe a JetRib would be more of a problem but I certainly dont have any problems launching and recovering the Walker Bay.

As for two people, well yes it is a bit easier with two but one person could manage it - I often do on my own anyway. As I say, the trick is to keep the dinghy painter in your hand and then everything stays under control.

I have an option to move the dinghy chocks to the bathing platform and store it there but apart from testing it out, I've never had the urge to put it on the bathing platform. I can see that if we were moving a couple of miles up the coast it would be a bit quicker to put it on the bathing platform but it doesnt take much longet to put it up top.

I'm actually really pleased with this arrangement. Before buying the boat, we asked questions about dinghy storage. It seems that nothing is perfect in a swell. Even these new hydraulic bathing platforms can make it difficult in waves.
 
Re: Sq65

Fair enough, Mike. You seem to have sorted the operation. Whenever I've seen tenders launched from the FB it always seems to a 2 person operation. I once saw a bloke launch quite a large tender from his FB in a rolly anchorage in Majorca. His poor wife (mistress?) was tasked with the job of stopping the tender smacking into his pristine grp during the lowering process but she couldn't manage it and the o/b engine cracked the saloon window. You could hear the shouting and swearing from several hundred yards away /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
JFM wrote [ QUOTE ]
I expect the anchor is a 40kg Delta.... The fordeck mooring arrangement on the Sq65 looks all wrong imho for Med mooring, so far as I can tell from the pics. The cleats are right on the gunwhale, whereas they should be inboard on the foredeck.

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Yes, it's a 40kg Delta.
But what's wrong with the cleats? There are two on the gunwale, and two on the foredeck (one each side of the shank of the anchor) And the aft cleats (on the sloping bits each side of the transom) are about as far aft as they could be got, short of putting them on the bathing platform.
 
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