July MBY

benjenbav

benjenbav

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Mine arrived yesterday. Super piece by rickp about Hurricane and others trip to Malta and back, as reported here first. I live not far from Wokingham but have never been asked to one of their events. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

VAT article seemed a bit confused - or maybe it's just me. I was reading it at 3am this morning - Don't ask - The arguments have all been rehearsed here a zillion times though.

WNS - no-one saw fit to include my suggestion of throwing the porky lads overboard and seeing if the boat floated off. But I was glad to see that Tony's solution involved a substantial quantity of rope - should a shareholding in Jimmy Green be disclosed?

Oyster OM43 - yes please. My only criticism is why is the radome so low to the saloon roof? I would have thought that as the bows rise the radar will just be seeing the inside of the anchor locker.

Question: the Squaddie 65 (haven't read the review yet) had the same pattern anchor as I have. What's it called? Mine always seems to work when I want it to so I can't get too worked up about different types but it would be interesting to know.

All in all, another top offering. Well done Hugo.
 
Thanks djefabs and rickp. Silly, but I've never looked in the virtual pub bit before. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Yup, I thought it was a good issue. Quite thin - haven't counted to see if that's advertising or editorial.

I haven't got the Sq65 photos in front of me but I expect the anchor is a 40kg Delta. Delta is a Lewmar brand and Fairline like Lewmar gear - Derek Carter was CEO of Lewmar during the Cinven buyout days, yonks ago

The fordeck mooring arrangement on the Sq65 looks all wrong imho for Med mooring, so far as I can tell from the pics. The cleats are right on the gunwhale, whereas they should be inboard on the foredeck. You can't grip the ground lines after you've winched them in using the capstan, so how can you attach them to the cleats without losing the tension? I told em at the design stage but they didn't listen! The aft cleats are also too far forward for Med mooring- they'd be ok there if there were fairleads right on the aft quarters, but there aren't

What was wrong with the VAT article specifically? I thought it was all correct. Much of what was in there hasn't been rehearsed on here.
 
I see from your profile that you used to race dinghies - what class and where?

I read the Squaddie revied with interest - this new offering from Fairline is exactly the same dimensiona as the Princess 67. Some radical new features ..... and ommisions - it would be interesting to see what others think.
 
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What was wrong with the VAT article specifically?

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The article seemed to say on the one hand that a VAT paid boat would fetch a premium on a second-hand sale over a non-VAT paid equivalent boat and on the other hand that a second-hand sale from individual to individual won't create a VAT supply, so no issue about lack of some possibly antique VAT docket.

Now I know that the premium can be explained by people believing a false normative (the right expression?) but the impression I received was that one needed a VAT invoice to preserve value and that one didn't need a VAT invoice to preserve value.

I thought the TI issue and the points about both charter and French and Italian laws were clearly explained, at least to the level of detail of making people realise that specialist advice should be taken to get it right.
 
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I live not far from Wokingham but have never been asked to one of their events.


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Me neither. I think Groucho Marx had it about right

I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Raced mostly Enterprises and Solos - and Mirrors. Home club was on the River Severn, near Worcester. I used to be expert at roll tacking to make some progress against the stream in zero wind. Sailed an Int Moth for a couple of years. Mostly for fun as mine was a slightly out of date design. Did bits and pieces in quite a few others. Then did sailboarding on the original Ten Cate Windsurfer - I recall an instructors' course on Holme Pierpoint in November, competing to see who could get across with the board perpendicular. B....... freezing. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
How does winching in a bow line or stern line for a Med mooring work? Do you leave the rope wound around the winch under tension and just cleat it off or do you remove the rope from the winch, hold the tension and then cleat it off?
Agree with you regarding the bow cleats on the Sq65. I don't know how those would work the way SWMBO and I do it. I tug the line thru the fairlead until it's at the right position, she jams her foot on the rope at the fairlead to hold the tension (surprisingly effective) and that allows me to cleat the rope off. Without a fairlead, you would have to try to hold the tension against the cleat as you try to tie it off. Not easy
 
Thoughts on the Sq65 then...

1. I dont like the blue hull but that's an owner's choice. Likewise it would look great with oak interior (gloss walnut is passe now) and with those dark wood floors

2. I love fairline's increasingly clever use of glass. The front cabin looks great. Sq85 will be even better in the glass department

3. Fairline were experimenting with some kind of lagging stuck to the hull internal surface, to eliminate wave slap noise, then they would market Sq65 with front cabin as owner's. Guess it didn't work out

4. Transom shower is very nice

5. Cleats look wrong to me, see above

6. Flybridge is mostly excellent. While Prin do a number of things better than FL, the FL fly's are much better imho Mike. The seating layout works better, no long bench on the stbd side and a full lunch table not a small coffee-shop size table. Helm is also great, set up like a desk. Very nice sunbeds (pity about the cushion colour on the launch model but no matter) and imho it's the right decision to put the tender n the swim platform and not crane it onto the fly (but each to their own on that)

7. A few flaws on the flybr though. Cheap looking plastic table. Why do Fairline do this? They put lovely teak tables on Sq55, 70, 78 and phantom48. Then put white plastic on Sq65 and Sq58 they put white plastic with teak trim. Urgh. That leaves poor customers like me having to chuck out the whole table (wasteful) and get a teak one made. Wake up Fairline! Separatley, I think the radar arch is too low and prefer the central radar mast but Fairline definitely don't want central masts anymore.

8. Dave Marsh went on about black linings in saloon cupboards. I hope FL dont listen to him. They have used black here for years (since 2002 on the Sq58 frexample) and he never mentioned it then. Anyway, it looks better in this location. I hope FL don't take Mr Marsh's advice and switch to cream colour

9. I'd change the internal layout and get rid of the day head and fit a laundry room with separate washing m/c and tumble drier. This boat suffers from no utility room and indeed I don't see how anyone can run a boat like this to a high standard without a utility room. After a week's cruise you have acres of bed linens, bathroom towels, swim towels, tablecloths and so on. Plus the sunbrella covers on the external seats. How are you supposed to launder all that? (Am I the only person who thinks this?)

10. Would be nice if they offered MTU engines. Would give it a more Rolls Roycy feel.

I'd be interest to hear what you think of as omissions Hurricane, as you have your finger on the pulse after 2000nm in this category of boat
 
Eaxctly. On a boat his size, with heavy groundline/chain that you have in a 23m berth, you'd need to wind in the ground lines on the capstan, not pull them by hand. The second groundline (assuming you have 2) could be left on the capstan but the first one has to be removed from the capstan to free up the capstan for the second one. Prior to taking it off the capstan you have to put a foot on the line to hold the tension, as you say. No other method works. And so you must have the cleat inboard on the fordeck, so you can put your foot on the line twixt fairlead and cleat, clamping it onto the deck to grip it while you fasten the loose end to the cleat.

I told them all this in writing at the design stage, and it's not rocket science, urgh....

Ref your Q, I use the foot clamp method for the 2 bow ground lines. sometimes I leave the second line on the capstan, but usually I dont so crew can lower the anchor to clean the anchor locker. I do the bow groundlines to their final position first, then winch in the stern to tension the rig. I leave the stern lines on the winch drums all the time. Many folks say it harms the winch to leave it under tension nearly 12months a year but I see no engineering basis for that; it's just a daft old wives talel
 
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9. I'd change the internal layout and get rid of the day head and fit a laundry room with separate washing m/c and tumble drier. This boat suffers from no utility room and indeed I don't see how anyone can run a boat like this to a high standard without a utility room. After a week's cruise you have acres of bed linens, bathroom towels, swim towels, tablecloths and so on. Plus the sunbrella covers on the external seats. How are you supposed to launder all that? (Am I the only person who thinks this?)

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..............anyone else thinking?...."its a different world".... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
"The article seemed to say on the one hand that a VAT paid boat would fetch a premium on a second-hand sale over a non-VAT paid equivalent boat and on the other hand that a second-hand sale from individual to individual won't create a VAT supply, so no issue about lack of some possibly antique VAT docket."

I think the article got it right BJB. There is a price premium for vAT-paid boats. A sale from individual to individual doesn't trigger VAT, but that isn't inconsistent with saying there is a price premium for VAT paid. Most non VAT paid boats come with hassle/baggage to keep the no-VAT status and perhaps some unjustified fear among buyers, and there is a lsightly different supply/demand curve, so that leads to a price differential

The issue about the existence of proof of vAT paid has been done on here at length as you know. Many people go round suggesting that if you have no VAT-paid doc your boat can be impounded. That is generally utterly untrue but there is a tiny bit of truth to it. A boat can be impounded by most customs authorities if it is smuggled, and non payment of import VAT (not other VAT) makes the boat smuggled. Moreover, in most laws (including UK) an innocent subsequent buyer of smuggled goods can have it confiscated, though that would be very very rare under modern law.

On that very specific point, I'm backtracking (with apologies) from what I've written on this forum previously: there is, as I say, this one scenario whereby an innocent subsequent buyer can suffer confiscation, at least in theory. It was explained correctly in the MBY article however

I guess this one remote scenario (smuggling) in which a boat can be confiscated is the reason the urban myth has developed that any boat sans docs can be confiscated. The urban myth is mostly just that, but there is this grain of truth in it. Not that you'll get this explanation if you ask HMRC, RYA, etc. The MBY article is the first I've seen that makes this point properly (though briefly - there was so much to say it had to be edited tightly, and it's still a v long article, way above the original target wordcount, but I think Hugo's editing was well judged in not shortening it any further)
 
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..............anyone else thinking?...."its a different world".... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Ah yeah but the different world is boating in a Sq65 (or prin67, etc) compared with a dayboat etc. My ideas on having a laundry are not the different world. Once you've been teleported to planet Sq65/Prin67/etc you just need a laundry to survive in the world. :-)
 
Yes and no. Certainly cruising on jfm's boat sounds like a very swish affair. In fact I might go his rather than mine! But he has a point. We seem to get through an awful lot of towels and bedding on our boat during a 2 week cruise but we have nowhere to store them except in the cabins and if you have guests in the cabins, it all gets a bit tight for storage. A utility room would be v useful. I don't know about washing the cockpit upholstery though. My stuff is lucky to get a wipe down
 
I do agree that the comments I picked out are not inconsistent. I suppose it's just that I thought the article could have been slanted further towards debunking the myth that without a VAT invoice you might lose your boat.

I think you can be excused the omission about impounding boats if they've been smuggled. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif As Lord Denning said, "Fraud unravels everything"

Delta it is, btw. Just checked out the pattern on the lewmar website. Thx.
 
Just skimmed thru the article and it seems generally very thorough but it misses one point as to why you might want to have evidence of VAT payment on a used boat purchase. Sorry to keep banging on about this on the forum but finance co's do ask for evidence of VAT payment when assessing a boat that is being sold VAT paid for a mortgage and without it, the value of the boat as assessed by the finance co is reduced and thus the amount they are willing to lend against it is reduced. Furthermore I did hear from a broker a few weeks ago that any discrepancies in documentation were now being used by finance co's as a way of rejecting the mortgage application. The broker cited one sale that he had made that had fallen through because the VAT evidence was not available. So IMHO, this one very good reason why a VAT paid boat with acceptable VAT paid evidence is worth more than a VAT paid boat without such evidence
 
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I thought the article could have been slanted further towards debunking the myth that without a VAT invoice you might lose your boat.

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In terms of slant and column inches the editor decided not to. He wanted to cover lots of ground, almost everything to do with VAT. Hence each individual aspect of VAT only got a paragraph or so. On the "lose your boat" thing you could write a full article but only one para was allocated. I don't have the article here but i think it said the following. I think it does a reasonable job of dealing with the "lose your boat" point, within those editorial confines?

"Q24: Can my boat be impounded in the UK if I cannot prove that VAT is paid?
A: Except in limited circumstances, if you have complied with the law, no. VAT is generally only due on two events: the sale of a boat by a VAT-registered seller (in which case the VAT liability falls on the seller not the buyer), and on import into the EU (in which case the VAT is payable by the importer). There is only one circumstance in which an innocent buyer of a boat can be liable for VAT that someone else failed to pay previously. This is if the boat is imported and the importer failed to pay the import VAT. Import VAT falls under the same laws as customs duties, and therefore such a boat is smuggled. Smuggled goods can generally be seized by HMRC, even if they no longer belong to the smuggler. Thus, the reason you might wish to have proof of VAT payment on a second-hand boat is to guard against the risk it is smuggled and liable to seizure. HMRC do not pursue a policy of assuming “smuggled until proved otherwise” and couldn’t under the law, so the likelihood of this becoming a problem for a second-hand boat buyer is very small. HMRC would have to have some reasonable grounds for believing your boat is smuggled before they could contemplate seizing it from you. Nevertheless, to remove doubt completely, it makes sense to get proof of VAT status when buying second-hand."
 
Personally I don't think that point belonged in the article mike. It's a valid point, but no-one would ever get caught out by it. If buying a boat with missing papers, it's automatically worth less and you dont need a Finance co to tell you so. If somehow mistakenly you offer a higher price you'll find this out when the finance co reject it, or whatever they do

Dont apol for banging on about it though, it's a valid point imho
 
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