Joggled timbers

oldfrank

oldfrank

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Joggled timbers are/were steamed and cut to fit the plank lands inside clinker boats. The process is fairly unusual - it implies building the hull 'back to front' - i.e. you have to put the timbers in beside the moulds before the planking, instead of planking up around moulds and then fitting the timbers last. Certainly this would make an open beach boat hull more resistant to the 'wringing' effect that could be imposed by anything up to three masts. Conversely, the absence of gaps around the lands to let the water out increases the tendency to rot and makes the timbers virtually impossible to replace in later life.

In these parts, most surviving vesells with joggled timbers were built by the Beeching family at Great Yarmouth. James Beeching came from a Bexhill family with smuggling connections and built fast boats at Hasting until he went into bankruptcy in 1816. He then moved across the water to Flushing, where he continued to build fast boats that at least owed some of their income to smuggling. I've no idea what she looked like but my personal favourite amongst his Flushing boats was christened Big Jane. He eventually returned to Great Yarmouth and began to build beach yawls and fishing boats and eventually produced a lifeboat for Capt. Manby of Gorleston. Beeching went on to design a lifeboat that won the Duke of Northumberland's £100 prize in 1850 and subsequently quite a number of 'Norfolk & Suffolk' type lifeboats etc. All that have survived had 'joggled timbers' and this includes vessels built by his sons at the Gt. Yarmouth yard that became Beeching Bros and closed in 1919.

Now for my question. Does anyone have any history on joggled timbers? It doesn't seem to have a local base - could this be something that Beeching imported from either Hastings or Flushing? Any clues?

Elderly But Slightly Perplexed Frank

PS. John Leather doesn't mention joggled timbers in his book 'Clinker Boatbuilding', althought the oracle at the bottom of the cliff says that Howard I. Chapelle does in his 1946 work entitled 'Boatbuilding'. Might it be a construction method that died out in the UK but continued in the far-flung provinces? Grateful for any advice on this conundrum.
 
In clinker construction sawn frames are USUALLY fitted, just like steamed timbers, after the hull has been planked.
It is common, eg Thames rowing skiffs and clinker launches with one central sawn frame.
A gap is left near the land to let water through.
John Leather is not always right!
 
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Are you sure that they don't have wedges fitted under afterwards? In practcie it would be hard to
a) cut these to fit before planking because of the obvious pattening/radius issues
b) get the twist in as they are steamed in, due to all those thin areas that would break soon as not
c)generally push the sanity of any boatbuilder
d) would not add that much structually for all that effort

Any pics/drawings??

Wringing of hulls is prevented by Knees-thwart,quarter and brest hook. or a deck.


I am looking at this from a boatbuilders point of view, not a historians!
 
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Seanick said:
In clinker construction sawn frames have to be fitted, just like steamed timbers, after the hull has been planked.
It is common, eg Thames rowing skiffs and clinker launches with one central sawn frame.
A gap is left near the land to let water through.
John Leather is not always right!
Click to expand...

no they dont
 
Not sure about joggling. However, it is possible to build a clinker boat by putting the steamed timbers in before the planking. Amulet was built this way. The form was set up with temporary laths (called "rabbets" I think). The timbers were then steamed and fixed to them. The rabbets were removed as the planking was fitted.

My father, when building Amulet, had intended to build Amulet in the conventional sequence. Planks followed by timbers. Preparing to do so, he consulted Ewing McGruer, of the famous McGuer's boat builders. He advised the "reverse" oreder of construction.

However, no joggling.

Some photographs of Amulet's building at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamcameronhimself/sets/72157621267763489/
 
My old boat Billows is a Rye beach boat built by Phillips & sons, she had a combination of sawn joggled frames or floors in her bottom & steamed timbers in her topsides, both overlapped at the turn of the bilge where a long bilge runner & stringer were fastened.
Her sawn half frames were really too wide a spread to be called floors but were fitted afterwards.
Interestingly the frames & steamed timbers were clenched in rather than roved & riveted i was told that this was done so in the event of a heavy landing the nails might pull without breaking timbers or planking.
It is stated in Edgar J March's book Inshore craft of Britain in the days of sail & oar that the Yorkshire Cobles had their grown frames fitted after planking & this is also standard practice in Scandinavian working boat construction.
 
Amulet said:
Not sure about joggling. However, it is possible to build a clinker boat by putting the steamed timbers in before the planking. Amulet was built this way. The form was set up with temporary laths (called "rabbets" I think). The timbers were then steamed and fixed to them. The rabbets were removed as the planking was fitted.

My father, when building Amulet, had intended to build Amulet in the conventional sequence. Planks followed by timbers. Preparing to do so, he consulted Ewing McGruer, of the famous McGuer's boat builders. He advised the "reverse" oreder of construction.

However, no joggling.

Some photographs of Amulet's building at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamcameronhimself/sets/72157621267763489/
Click to expand...

Just to say really enjoyed looking at your pics on Flickr. Looks like she was saved just in time by Bob, and you have returned her to a first class condition. I look forward to seeing your grandchildren sailing her!n Nice job.

With regard to steaming the timbers in first, the battens around the hull are usually called ribbands. I suppose the advantage of putting them in first is you can coat them all round, so adding longevity, and cramp them up tight to each land as you plank up. You can also rivet them up as you go too.
The disadvantage is you have to fit more ribbands in the first place.
 
These aren't frames or floors, they're steamed timbers. I confirm there are no wedges - the timber is cut to fit the plank lands. The can't go in after the planking - for the same reason that these timbers are virtually impossible to replace. Most of Beeching's beach boats (and lifeboats for that matter) were virtually undecked so there was no strength to be had from deck knees. I'll see if I can get some better photos of the Alfred Corry next time I'm in Southwold. It's quite a fancy method of construction - but where did it come from? Emery of Sheringham also used this method construction for crab boats - what we don't know is whether he served an apprenticeship with Beechings.

it did occur to me that this might enable a singleman to nail up on his own - but production efficiencies seem outweighed by the more complicated nature of construction. OF
 
Beeching was one of very few builders to actually design boats on paper so he may have set steamed timbers up on ribbands first before planking & notched them out as they planked up on the other hand it was said that the Yawl Bittern had grown frames joggled to fit the planking, a grown frame can be quite light in size if the grain follows well. However if building a clinker boat by eye it was normal practice to fit the frames afterwards & in the case of joggled ones this meant grown frames only.
 
This is what Josty Consulting define as joggled planks:

"Joggled timber
– frame shaped in such a way that each attached strake slopes outward giving the appearance of being clinker built although the planks do not overlap."


That seems to be rather different from what is being described here.


To cut wedges out in order to fit the planks obviously means the wood section has to be deeper to start with. Is it steamed first and then the wedges cut, or wedges cut and then steamed?

One or two of the original frames on my boat are joggled, but with no apparent system. They are not complete lengths from beam shelf to keel, but are shorter lengths apparently added later for additional strength
 
"That seems to be rather different from what is being described here."

Yes it is - these boats are clinker from the outside too. It's an extremely unusual form of construction (I think) and I'm anxious to find out where Beeching got it from. Something that many forget today is that beach boats were simply worn out by their beaches - but might this have been usual construction for early, small clinker boats?

"To cut wedges out in order to fit the planks obviously means the wood section has to be deeper to start with. Is it steamed first and then the wedges cut, or wedges cut and then steamed?" The answer is that I don't know for sure - and there's no-one left to ask. My assumption is that they must have been steamed first and subsequently notched for the planklands. There are no wedges involved and they must just have started off with a deeper section of green oak.

John Leather did make the point in 'Clinker Boatbuilding' that small clinker boats were spread to America, Australia, New Zealand etc on the back of the British Empire. I wondered if this was the connection with Chappelle - an old form of construction that may have survived in the States.

The overwhelming consensus amongst today's boatbuilders is joggled timbers just aren't worth the effort!
 
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To a boatbuilder it is an ridiculous question, you would never cut wedges out first & then try & steam bend a timber. It would be akin to putting saw cuts on the outside of a timber then bending it, ie it will invariably snap.
The defenition of Joggled timbers makes no sense either, I wonder if the "consultants" have ever worked on clinker boats! A joggled timber is in a clinker boat And is notched to fit the lands, sometimes a boat will have its planking changed to Carvel during subsequent rebuilds, the Essex Smack Boadicea had some frames like this and another example was the Faversham Bawley Fiddle.
There are only two ways of doing it, Steam thicker timbers over ribands & then notch out when cold or you fit the timbers frames or floors afterwards, Its common sense not a mystical art!
 
Keith 66 said:
To a boatbuilder it is an ridiculous question, you would never cut wedges out first & then try & steam bend a timber. It would be akin to putting saw cuts on the outside of a timber then bending it, ie it will invariably snap.
The defenition of Joggled timbers makes no sense either, I wonder if the "consultants" have ever worked on clinker boats! A joggled timber is in a clinker boat And is notched to fit the lands, sometimes a boat will have its planking changed to Carvel during subsequent rebuilds, the Essex Smack Boadicea had some frames like this and another example was the Faversham Bawley Fiddle.
There are only two ways of doing it, Steam thicker timbers over ribands & then notch out when cold or you fit the timbers frames or floors afterwards, Its common sense not a mystical art!
Click to expand...

I think the consultants' definition is of a carvel hull but with the planks deliberately offset a bit (by the internal joggles) so that from the outside it appears clinker. I've no idea whether this has ever actually been done, or why, but I can see it could be possible.


I don't see how you fit a joggled frame after planking, if you have to steam it before cutting the wedges out.
You take your hot frame, bend it into position on the inside, secure until cool - then what?
As soon as you cut the first wedge and press the timber outwards against the plank, you increase the circumference of the curve it has to fit inside. Surely the wood will become progressively too short as you work along?
 
i have seen seperate wedges cut & fitted under the timbers.
I dont quite follow the (sort of clinker,) unless its carvel, sawn frames flattened for each plank, rather than hollowing the back of planks, if the planks are stepped away from each other
?????
& this thread is getting confusing without diagrams
 
Should be no need for diagrams - but I will get a better photograph. It's simply steamed timbers rebated to accept each plank land inside the vessel. No wedges; just green, steamed oak cut to fit.

"To a boatbuilder it is a ridiculous question, you would never cut wedges out first & then try & steam bend a timber. It would be akin to putting saw cuts on the outside of a timber then bending it, ie it will invariably snap." Correct. The timbers must be steamed first.

"There are only two ways of doing it, Steam thicker timbers over ribands & then notch out when cold or you fit the timbers frames or floors afterwards, Its common sense not a mystical art!" I assume that oversized timbers were steamed first and allowed to cool before cutting. Unfortunately there's no-one around anymore that worked on the Beechings yard.

If it makes Forum members feel any better, the National Maritime Museum has also failed to produce a definitive answer on joggled timbers. Historic Ships also seem flummoxed.

There's a challenge for you! OF.
 
oldfrank said:
Should be no need for diagrams - but I will get a better photograph. It's simply steamed timbers rebated to accept each plank land inside the vessel. No wedges; just green, steamed oak cut to fit.

"To a boatbuilder it is a ridiculous question, you would never cut wedges out first & then try & steam bend a timber. It would be akin to putting saw cuts on the outside of a timber then bending it, ie it will invariably snap." Correct. The timbers must be steamed first.

"There are only two ways of doing it, Steam thicker timbers over ribands & then notch out when cold or you fit the timbers frames or floors afterwards, Its common sense not a mystical art!" I assume that oversized timbers were steamed first and allowed to cool before cutting. Unfortunately there's no-one around anymore that worked on the Beechings yard.

If it makes Forum members feel any better, the National Maritime Museum has also failed to produce a definitive answer on joggled timbers. Historic Ships also seem flummoxed.

There's a challenge for you! OF.
Click to expand...
thanks frank, your first sentence here makes it clear
 
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