Jesters' fines by Border Force upended

[zoidberg]

I post this here for a much wider and relevant audience.

Last year's 'Jester Azores Challenge' was notable for the remarkable escort and tow of a rudderless 'Jester' entrant from halfway, several hundred miles to safety in Terceira, Azores.
It was also marred by the robust abuse and bullying meted out to two of the group's returnees to Plymouth waters by the local 'orcs' of the Border Agency, who issued hefty fines for transgressing bits of the COVID regulations which had changed while the two, Donald and Graeme, had been at sea on the way back and quite unable to both 'know' and 'comply'.

It took a year of lobbying and twisting of political arms before some common sense prevailed and wiser council intervened. The fines have been rescinded. Refunds are awaited.

Will this lead to a less-bullying style of behaviour from our largely-unaccountable, law-unto-themselves Border Force types? Will lessons be learned...?

 

[sarabande]

I suspect that the Border Force crews had no idea of what the Jesters had been doing for the previous weeks, and were applying the rules as they had been instructed..

That said, their line management should have stepped back straightaway, looked at the circumstances, and said, the circumstances don't fit the way the rules were intended to work, so on your way.

My nephew is a long-serving HMRC / Border Force senior officer, and wrings his hands at the way BF is treated by the Home Office and FCO, and even the RN at times.

What does one do with rules ? Make them suitable for 99,99% of 'normql' sailors, and allow a gap for the 1 in 10000 that doesn't fit the profile ?


Yet, I am glad that the situation has been successfully resolved, even though distinguished Jesters, and other supporters, have had to twist arms and pull strings in the background.

 

[zoidberg]

their line management should have stepped back straightaway

Apparently, they didn't. They should have stepped in. Various appeals to 'common sense' by ever-escalating levels of 'influence' were bluntly ignored..... until rather a lot of clout was brought to bear, as proved necessary and embarassing to quite senior types in that organisation, with the clear implication that even more heavyweight clout was in the background if needed.

I'd like to believe that, in this country, we can rely ultimately on the 'common sense' of officers - those holding more senior positions warranted by The Crown - to interpret the rules and regs 'in the public interest' when anomalous circumstances require.... and to make damn sure their people don't bring their service into public disrepute.

I'd like to think this will result in a more 'interpretative' approach by the sharp ( ? ) end of the Border Force and rather less of an 'authoritative' East German Border Guards style.

 

[Blueboatman]

Thx for the sane heads up

 

[Adios]

I suspect that the Border Force crews had no idea of what the Jesters had been doing for the previous weeks, and were applying the rules as they had been instructed..

That said, their line management should have stepped back straightaway, looked at the circumstances, and said, the circumstances don't fit the way the rules were intended to work, so on your way.

My nephew is a long-serving HMRC / Border Force senior officer, and wrings his hands at the way BF is treated by the Home Office and FCO, and even the RN at times.

What does one do with rules ? Make them suitable for 99,99% of 'normql' sailors, and allow a gap for the 1 in 10000 that doesn't fit the profile ?

Is this the existential rant thread? Good, as you're touching on maybe the biggest fundamental thing making it all go wrong these days. Its not just rules its all sorts of protocols being applied with limited options. Its really the application of algorithms which is limiting us by the limited options within them.

That said, their line management should have stepped back straightaway, looked at the circumstances, and said, the circumstances don't fit the way the rules were intended to work, so on your way.

Have you noticed there is no longer any point saying "let me speak to your manager"? There is no one who is not constrained by the limited options of the algorithm.

My latest experience was trying to deal with Virgin Media after an installation went slightly off script. There were limited options on their website which didn't include what I needed, I managed to speak to a human and all they had are the same options on their screen. And there is no manager who can step in and go against the program, how could he? We're in a digital world now of 0s and 1s, no grey. How we used to laugh when "the computer said no". Not any more. I'd have to get to speak to the CEO perhaps who would still be unable to help me if the programming doesn't account for my exact issue. He could get the whole program changed perhaps which would need so much work its not worth it, more efficient if I just disappeared and weren't a customer which is what I did. You might not have noticed if you've not had run ins with corporations or government departments in the last few years but its dramatically changed with the more digital its all gone, naturally it would of course as machine programs are always algorithms with limited options. In the end I fear we will welcome AI into our lives as it will be a blessed relief from this very limited result of long hand programing. Stupidly we'll welcome AI rather than going back to humans in the chain.

And the more this limited way is becoming accepted the less we question it when protocols in our life fail to take variables into account. Nurses apply compression bandaging to ischemic leg ulcers because they don't think they should question the leg ulcer protocol. They might be sued if they do what they think is best. They can't be sued if they follow the single one size doesn't fit all protocol. The fire brigade didn't tell residents to leave Grenfell Tower for an hour and half after the fire was known to be spreading from flat to flat because they were following a stay put protocol based on a more typical scenario where fires don't spread from flat to flat. We are teaching ourselves to never think on our feet. I watched about 20 coastguard preventing people going onto a flat beach in broad daylight all sweating under pit helmets with head torches on. Uniformity is good we think, if we always do it one way no one will ever forget his head torch when he needs it. If we do it one way its easy to learn and easy to teach. Great. But it teaches us not to think about what we are doing or why we're doing it which prevents us learning a better way. We're becoming drones. People who have learned the protocol but don't understand the reasoning that was needed to come up with it will inevitable apply it in situations it wasn't designed for. Hence Grenfell and hence nurses utterly ballsing up leg ulcers on an epic scale. No doubt increasing examples will exist until hopefully, eventually, AI will become as smart as a human has always been and the media will tell us to hail the progress.

 

[Adios]

Apparently, they didn't. They should have stepped in. Various appeals to 'common sense' by ever-escalating levels of 'influence' were bluntly ignored..... until rather a lot of clout was brought to bear, as proved necessary and embarassing to quite senior types in that organisation, with the clear implication that even more heavyweight clout was in the background if needed.

I'd like to believe that, in this country, we can rely ultimately on the 'common sense' of officers - those holding more senior positions warranted by The Crown - to interpret the rules and regs 'in the public interest' when anomalous circumstances require.... and to make damn sure their people don't bring their service into public disrepute.

I'd like to think this will result in a more 'interpretative' approach by the sharp ( ? ) end of the Border Force and rather less of an 'authoritative' East German Border Guards style.

and smell the coffee... This is exactly what is able to happen less and less. The programming in digital government doesn't allow it and the people in those positions are learning there is less and less point trying to question or circumvent it. Hence it took so long and was so hard in this example.

 

[sarabande]

I noticed this thread

Improved way of informing Border force and HMRC when exiting and entering the UK | YBW Forum

which seems to indicate the someone somewhere in BF has listened and learned from theJester incident.

 

[steve yates]

I noticed this thread

Improved way of informing Border force and HMRC when exiting and entering the UK | YBW Forum

which seems to indicate the someone somewhere in BF has listened and learned from theJester incident.

Why would you think the one has any bearing on the other? The jesters fell foul of border force using covid protocol as a blunt instrument.

 

[ylop]

Is there a link to what they were alleged to have done wrong?