Jan 09 WNS

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Ah, but the dinghy is listed as 'in addition' to the usual equipment, so this particular 38 footer doesn't normally have a tender. So it wouldn't have a spare 5hp motor as part of it's 'usual equipment'.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a perfectly valid point Wiggo. Should have added the motor to the 'in addition' list. However, now that you know there's a 5hp O/B available, does that alter your plan?

Best wishes
TJ
 
Neale

Thank you for your careful and considered response. It details your immediate and subsequent actions and works on the 'If A, then B; If C then D -depending on how things develop' principle which is what I always hope for in WNS solutions, but rarely find.

Best wishes
TJ
 
Of course it bloody well does! FFS, how much of mental challenge is it to go 30 metres in a 3m dinghy with a 5hp outboard to pull two kids off a rock?

February's WNS: you find yourself in a 50' flybridge adrift near a RYA harbour. The tide is pushing you very slowly west, and eventually you would start to go east again after about 6 hours. You are nearly a mile form your marina and you need to be home in the next three days. Did we mention that the boat has two engines that aren't running and you have the keys in your pocket? WNS?
 
[ QUOTE ]
It details your immediate and subsequent actions and works on the 'If A, then B; If C then D -depending on how things develop' principle which is what I always hope for in WNS solutions, but rarely find.

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Sorry, Tony. I do try to be civil about this, but frankly the reason you so rarely see such responses is because your scenarios are frankly crap.

The solution in this case is blindingly obvious, but you seem to get some perverse delight in scoring petty points from your readership about who forgot to write the frickin' risk assessment down in their log book or some such crap.

Every time someone comes up with an original solution that makes a mockery of the scenario, you suddenly start crowing about how clever you were to have built that loophole in, and how dumb everyone else was for not spotting it.

And anyway, if I may quote from your original post:

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If pushed for time a chronological list of your thoughts and subsequent actions will do fine. E.g: 1. Stop boat. 2. Brief crew. 5. Recover bimini from over the side. 6. Continue to destination.

[/ QUOTE ] points 3 and 4 were obviously being held in reserve for points scoring later, I expect. I will not be contributing to any further WNS posts as I think that your attitude is demeaning to the forum membership, petty and confrontational.
 
I think you're being a bit harsh.

There is no "right" solution - I posted roughly what I would do, and other's solutions are equally potentially valid, but different, for their own reasons, imho. Actual crew capabilities, plus what YOU know will work will always shape the response.

dv.
 
Agreed, but TJ always has the 'right' solution in mind before he writes the damn scenarios. Every subsequent post is an opportunity for him to show his superiority.

I have no problem with folks using the forum as a soapbox or making prats of themselves (God knows, Daka starts enough controversial ones /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) but this crap ends up in print being presented to the great unwashed as some marvel of boating wisdom.
 
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Agreed, but TJ always has the 'right' solution in mind before he writes the damn scenarios. Every subsequent post is an opportunity for him to show his superiority.

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Complete and utter crap Wiggo. I have said innumerable times that I have no monopoly on the 'right' answer and, indeed that there is often more than one answer. I may have my own personal preference at the start but that has often been modified by the informed suggestions posted here.

And when it comes to bad manners and confrontation I suggest you go back and compare my posts with your own and a small number of other contributors who have been personally abusive - which I have certainly never been to any member of the WNS thread.

Frankly your opinion of me personally is of no concern. It certainly causes me no loss of sleep. I am here doing a job as best I can and that seems to be appreciated by enough people to make it worthwhile. However, your consistently offensive attitude means that I will not be commenting on your posts in the future.

Yours in disappointment
Tony Jones

TJ
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is no "right" solution - I posted roughly what I would do, and other's solutions are equally potentially valid, but different, for their own reasons, imho. Actual crew capabilities, plus what YOU know will work will always shape the response. dv.

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Thank your S28. I've made exactly this point over and over but some people just refuse to get it.

Regards
TJ
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mind I've never met an MBY jurno thats ever been on a boat, but they would all like to.

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Oh dear hlb, are you still banging on about this? We sorted all that out months ago. If you have never met a MBY journo that has been on a boat then you have never met a MBY journo. That I CAN believe. Speaking personally, I'm glad.

TJ
 
For those who are still with me...

This scenario originally made no mention of an outboard lurking in the lazarette. So some good solutions were originally offered on that basis. However it was then pointed out that with a 3m dinghy on board there would most probably be one.

I therefore accepted that, and subsequently repositioned the goalposts. But goals already scored under the original premise remain perfectly valid. Now everyone gets a second shot. Two scenarios for the price of one, if you like. This is what the 'interactive conversation' mode of recent WNS threads allows.

Some have said that the presence of an outboard removes all challenge from the scenario. Personally, I disagree and will explain why when this thread reaches its natural conclusion early next week. However, I will say that it has something to do with the effect the water depth (which can be deduced from the fact that the sterndrive cruiser with a draft of, say, 1m, can't get any closer to the rock than 25m) would have on the 'sea conditions' adjacent to the rock.

Best wishes
TJ
 
Do better than that. Theres a photo of me and two Jurno's doing the red thingy in Plymouth. They said they would love to go on a boat, but never couuld. It's in yer mag some where. Met Kim a few time too, now he has a boat or had, not sure he does much jurnoing these days though.

Wadelse doyer wonna know.

But lets not fall out about it eh.


Anyway, we would obviously take the dinghy round the other side of rock, where it's less bumpy.
 
In this hypothetical example,..... I am a fully trained and qualified Line Gun operator and I happen to have a couple of these beauties
kit.jpg
below deck just for these kind of circumstances.... after all they are not too expensive, and are absolutely brilliant in case you need to "throw" rescue ropes any significant distance...

So therefore the procedure goes:

1) Notify coastguard of the situation and as appropriate inform them of your intended rescue attempt.

2) Anchor off the rocks in a safe location
3) Have friends launch dinghy
4) Bring out line gun and don the appropriate safety gear, including shooting gloves, goggles and hearing protection.
5) Use on board tannoy system (Yes we do have one, with waterproof speakers towards bow and stern) to inform the stranded individuals of intent of shooting line onto rocks.
6) Shoot line to shore and prepare stronger line to be pulled on shore.
7) When line is shot and stronger line fast between your vessle and shore, fasten dinghy to line with carabine hook, or simlply loop dinghy's line over the shore line so the strongest of the crew can drag themself along the line to shore without worrying about drifting off. Have him/her set off (with the spare life vests you of course have.... well we do) to undertake rescue in a safecontrolled manner.
8) Inform Coastguard of status of rescue operation and stand by for recovery.
9) Request other crew members to prepare hot cups of tea/soup/coffee/cocoa and to stand by with towels and first aid kit just in case administration of first aid is required.
10) Wait for coastguard to inform of ETA of lifeboat etc., before making desicion of what to do next...
 
Re Wiggo's "no brainer": If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs ... then you probably haven't understood the situation.

FWIW, my appraoch would be:-
1: inform coastguard
2: anchor boat as close to the rock as is safe
3: review the situation, and either
a: launch the dinghy with its outboard, probably with "superman" on board, and get him to motor round to the lee side of the rock (PS that means the not-so-windy side, for those who have difficulty with normal terminology, and who prefer baby-talk) and collect the kids.
or b) drop the dinghy in the water, with the 70ft rope and several warps (PS that means sort of stringy thingies that you use for tying up the boaty woaty). Secure one end to the boat, and the other to the dinghy, and put the coil in the dinghy. Then -- probably with superman in the dinghy -- let the wind take the dinghy back to the rock. Load the kids into it, and carry on.
4. Tell the coastguard, about the successful rescue. By this time, they, in their bunker forty miles away, might have almost finished their risk assessment and be about ready to decide that a F3 is too dangerous to for their 5m RIB.

5. The most difficult bit of the whole exercise will probably be after the event, when you will have to convince the dibbles and some interfering busybody from the local council that you did not lure the kids onto your "luxury yacht" for your own sexual gratification.
 
IT'S A WRAP

OK, I'm wrapping this up a bit earlier than usual as we already have six pages and I think most of the points have been covered one way or another.

COMMENTS
Firstly, the ReadmeFirst section at the head of the page says:
'Safety and seamanship aspects such as crew briefing, monitoring the weather and general situational awareness are paramount even if the primary problem is a technical one'. So all those who failed to mention alerting the coastguard go to the bottom of the class.

If you can't get your boat closer to the rock than 25m that means the water is quite shallow and with an onshore F3/F4 the water between you and the rock, and particularly around the rock, is likely to be rough enough to make precise handling of a 3m dinghy quite tricky. That's an important aspect.

The 'no outboard' case doesn't provide many options but some people didn't read the brief properly and missed the fact that the items specifically mentioned were IN ADDITION to the boat's normal equipment - e.g mooring warps, lifejackets etc. So no need to unravel the tow rope to make it longer.

I have to say I'm surprised that so few people mentioned anchoring, which would save you from having to try and hold position head to wind at minimum speed in a boat that is trying to weathercock downwind all the time.

Now to the 'with outboard' case. I'm afraid those who said they would simply get in the dinghy and 'go rescue the kids because the situation was a 'no brainer' or 'bleeding obvious' exhibited - I'm sorry to say - exactly the sort of thinking and precipitous behavour with which the MAIB's accident reports are littered. The MAIB are constantly exhort mariners to think things through before acting and avail themselves of all available resources, including equipement and the expertise of other people.

Specifically: This means you are 100% reliant on the outboard as you have only one oar. So if it breaks down or you touch bottom in a big trough near the rock and break the sheer pin, you will end up on the beach, (from which there is no escape) with or without the kids, and in deep doodoo.

To adopt this course of action when you have access to a back-up safety system, i.e the tow warp and mooring lines just doesn't make sense.

So I would suggest:

Having done all the preamble bits, rig the outboard on the dinghy while someone else joins the mooring lines to the tow rope.

Put the strong swimmer in the dinghy (wearing one of the buoyancy aids) along with two lifejackets. The reason the swimmer wears a buoyancy aid rather than a lifejacket is that this will enable him to swim rather than be turned over on his back if he finds himself in the water.

Back the dinghy down towards the rock steering with the outboard. This keeps the floating tow rope clear of the prop. Use the outboard to go down one side of the rock and - depending on exact circumstances - round the back.

Embark children, inflate the lifejackets and tell them to hold on to one each and NOT LET GO. Or if they are 'big for their age' get them to put the jackets on. If there are childrens' lifejackets onboard, obviously take those instead.

Signal to the boat to start pulling you back. Assist with outboard thrust as necessary. Recover everyone on board. Advise coastguard and get the children ashore at an agreed point.

Get ready to receive reporters from the local paper who will get everything wrong when their account appears in print on Friday.

Finally, many thanks to all those who submitted thoughtful, competent and polite suggestions to a scenario that was very similar to one Dave Snelson actually encountered. Nuff said.

Best wishes
TJ
 
quote January 09 Scenario
You are cruising on a late summer’s afternoon along the picturesque rocky coastline with many small bays and coves which lies immediately to the west of your home marina. The wind is directly onshore, force three to four and the tide is in mid flood. / quote

from this I assume the current is flowing along the coast.

Has anybody tried rowing with a rope behind going across the tide? quite difficult to keep control of a boat with a motor, would think nearly impossible with one oar, unless current was near zero equally difficult while reversing as suggested, unless the rope has little drag, but you do say it is a towing rope.

Admittedly my experiance in this is limited to getting a longer and probably thicker rope to a boat aground in the enterance to Zierikzee harbour the other year, plus other tidal tow offs offered to others.
 
Ah but you implied as much by stating the usefulness or otherwise of the dinghy's paddles.

You should at least state what equipment is available in WNS because the introduction of a working O/B changes absolutely everything! In fact it pretty much nullifies the need for a WNS. Piece of cake!
 
This is what makes WNS so contentios. Your first lead to believe, that your equipement in a dinghy with one oar and a 70ft tow rope. So these props, you presume are your only equipement. Course you emediatly realise that the dinghys going no where with a dam big "tow" rope hanging out the back, even with the outboard, stearing would be a nightmare whilst paying out the rope and not getting it round the props.

Then of course, the roughness of the seaa is only in TJ's mind, but it seems to be a roughish F3 /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The sea is to shallow for the boat and possibly the dinghy, yet to deap for the kids to wade to the beach, or for some grown up to wade out there and get them.
 
[ QUOTE ]
quote January 09 Scenario
You are cruising on a late summer’s afternoon along the picturesque rocky coastline with many small bays and coves which lies immediately to the west of your home marina. The wind is directly onshore, force three to four and the tide is in mid flood. / quote

from this I assume the current is flowing along the coast.

Has anybody tried rowing with a rope behind going across the tide? quite difficult to keep control of a boat with a motor, would think nearly impossible with one oar, unless current was near zero equally difficult while reversing as suggested, unless the rope has little drag, but you do say it is a towing rope.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much tide - along the coast or otherwise - would be flowing inside the entrance to a small cove?

The towing rope is specified as poypropylene specifically because the material floats and would not be a big drag. In fact, it would drift downwind on its own.

TJ
 
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I have to say I'm surprised that so few people mentioned anchoring, which would save you from having to try and hold position head to wind at minimum speed in a boat that is trying to weathercock downwind all the time.

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Sorry don't agree. It would be easy for any half competent helmsman to hold a boat into wind when it has 2 engines and a bowthruster. After all that's what you have to do in a lot of marina manouvering situations. In any case launching and recovering an anchor adds additional risk to the situation particularly if it involves somebody going on to the foredeck. And, as I said in my original post, if you're going to launch the tender with a rope attached and let it drift down wind/tide to a particular spot and recover it without snagging the rope, you may well have to alter the position of the boat to assist

FWIW, you have my admiration for regularly putting up your WNS's for flaming by the forum but the facts need to be more rigorously presented. In this WNS, the presence of the o/b engine was critical but not mentioned
 
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