ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
Is it possible to use a knot on webbing jackstays for attachment to strong points on the boat? If so would a figure of eight be appropriate?
Jack stays
- Thread starter ghostlymoron
- Start date
firstascent2002
Well-Known Member
When climbing we regularly close loops of tape to make slings with a knot. To be strong, the webbing must lie flat on itself throughout the knot. Classically the climbing knot is simply to fold the webbing back on its self, essentially ending up with a bite that is folded flat at the reflection and then tie a granny knot (whole hitch). For use longer term i would then duck tape the knot. It's held me on many more falls than my jack stays have ever had to!
VicS
Well-Known Member
I would not have thought that a figure of eight knot was suitable for attaching anything to anything else . Its just a stopper knot .
However take a look at Animated knots by Grog There are a couple of knots in the climbing section made in webbing.
However take a look at Animated knots by Grog There are a couple of knots in the climbing section made in webbing.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
The figure of eight I meant was maybe better described as 'figure of eight on a bight' from memory of my climbing days it was the only recommended knot for forming a loop in a rope.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
That knot is fine for attaching the the jackstays, but don't attach it to the strong point, attach it to a shackle, that way you can remove them and extend the life of the webbing enormously.
damo
Well-Known Member
Figure-of-8 is definitely NOT just a stopper knot, for which job it's not particularly good anyway, because it comes loose too easily.
The fig-8 on a bight is a standard belay and harness knot for climbers.
And I second using tape knots for jackstays - that's what is on my boat. Not as strong as stitched loops, but plenty strong enough, and FREE /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The fig-8 on a bight is a standard belay and harness knot for climbers.
And I second using tape knots for jackstays - that's what is on my boat. Not as strong as stitched loops, but plenty strong enough, and FREE /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Spuddy
Well-Known Member
Well I hardly fell - timidity not skill but likewise came across Plas Y Brenin graduates who used fig 8 for everything. It's excellent for use with rope because the radii are large. Tape ? problem I'd see is that the risk of creases and folds weaken it. I had some slings with tape knots to form a loop and insulation tape around tails to stop creep. When I retired them I switched to sewn from Joe Browns etc and do similar for jack stays because of peace of mind, I suppose.
damo
Well-Known Member
Until sewn loops were developed tape was always knotted - with a tape/Frost/overhand knot or whatever you decide to call it. I put a few stitches in the tail to stop any creep, but once the knot has been loaded and bedded in you will never get it undone with your fingers anyway.
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Figure-of-8 is definitely NOT just a stopper knot, for which job it's not particularly good anyway, because it comes loose too easily.
[/ QUOTE ] While I agree that a simple figure of eight knot may not be the best stopper knot, indeed Grog gives the double overhand knot as a better alternative, if it is not just a stopper knot what else do you use it for. I've never come across any other use..
Grog shows variations on it in the form of a "figure 8 bend" , a "figure 8 loop follow through" and a "figure 8 double loop" in the climbing section.
None of the other knot sites I have looked at suggest any other use for the simple figure of eight.
Figure-of-8 is definitely NOT just a stopper knot, for which job it's not particularly good anyway, because it comes loose too easily.
[/ QUOTE ] While I agree that a simple figure of eight knot may not be the best stopper knot, indeed Grog gives the double overhand knot as a better alternative, if it is not just a stopper knot what else do you use it for. I've never come across any other use..
Grog shows variations on it in the form of a "figure 8 bend" , a "figure 8 loop follow through" and a "figure 8 double loop" in the climbing section.
None of the other knot sites I have looked at suggest any other use for the simple figure of eight.
damo
Well-Known Member
"if it is not just a stopper knot what else do you use it for. "
I don't use the simple fig-8 it for anything! To a climber a "Figure-of-8" means on the bight, or rethreaded, to make a secure loop.
I use a double overhand as a stopper knot, and IMO a single overhand is better than a simple fig-8 anyway, because it is less likely to loosen. I'm not sure why it is in such common usage - probably because "That's the way I was taught to do it" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I don't use the simple fig-8 it for anything! To a climber a "Figure-of-8" means on the bight, or rethreaded, to make a secure loop.
I use a double overhand as a stopper knot, and IMO a single overhand is better than a simple fig-8 anyway, because it is less likely to loosen. I'm not sure why it is in such common usage - probably because "That's the way I was taught to do it" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
VicS
Well-Known Member
You jumped on my post saying, "Figure-of-8 is definitely NOT just a stopper knot". What I want to know then is what IS it then?
I use it as a stopper knot and if its not snugged up tight it comes undone sometimes but I dont trust my life to it. Perhaps i'll change over to double overhand knots.
I use it as a stopper knot and if its not snugged up tight it comes undone sometimes but I dont trust my life to it. Perhaps i'll change over to double overhand knots.
damo
Well-Known Member
Repeat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif "To a climber a "Figure-of-8" means on the bight, or rethreaded, to make a secure loop."
So when you said "I would not have thought that a figure of eight knot was suitable for attaching anything to anything else . Its just a stopper knot ", my immediate thought was "So how come millions of people have used it to attach themselves to a rope?"
It is the usual knot for tying-in to a harness, and tying in the rope to belay yourself to something. Many climbers know only that one knot, which although unsuitable for some applications is good enough for most. I know of at least one indoor climbing centre which allows ONLY that knot to be used, which is probably as much a reflection on the expertise of the staff doing their supervision, as on the abilities of the punters to make themselves safe. (A rethreaded bowline - cf my sig /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif - looks like a poorly tied Fig-8, so I'm not allowed to use my proven safe knot, as recommended by the BMC, at that particular venue)
So when you said "I would not have thought that a figure of eight knot was suitable for attaching anything to anything else . Its just a stopper knot ", my immediate thought was "So how come millions of people have used it to attach themselves to a rope?"
It is the usual knot for tying-in to a harness, and tying in the rope to belay yourself to something. Many climbers know only that one knot, which although unsuitable for some applications is good enough for most. I know of at least one indoor climbing centre which allows ONLY that knot to be used, which is probably as much a reflection on the expertise of the staff doing their supervision, as on the abilities of the punters to make themselves safe. (A rethreaded bowline - cf my sig /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif - looks like a poorly tied Fig-8, so I'm not allowed to use my proven safe knot, as recommended by the BMC, at that particular venue)
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
To a climber a "Figure-of-8" means on the bight
[/ QUOTE ] Sorry my mistake then, humble apologies.
I thought this was a sailing forum not a climbing one and I naturally assumed the question about Jack stays referred to what I know as jack stays on a boat and that figure of 8 knot referred to what practically every sailing book calls a figure of 8 knot namely the stopper knot often used on the ends of sheets and halyards etc.
To a climber a "Figure-of-8" means on the bight
[/ QUOTE ] Sorry my mistake then, humble apologies.
I thought this was a sailing forum not a climbing one and I naturally assumed the question about Jack stays referred to what I know as jack stays on a boat and that figure of 8 knot referred to what practically every sailing book calls a figure of 8 knot namely the stopper knot often used on the ends of sheets and halyards etc.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry my mistake then, humble apologies.
I thought this was a sailing forum not a climbing one
[/ QUOTE ] Not very humble apologies then! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Come on Vic, admit you may have learned something on this thread /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Sorry my mistake then, humble apologies.
I thought this was a sailing forum not a climbing one
[/ QUOTE ] Not very humble apologies then! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Come on Vic, admit you may have learned something on this thread /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
damo
Well-Known Member
Fair enough /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Don't forget though that synthetic tape came to sailing from climbing (as have several other things), and it was knotted to make loops and slings for many years before stitching was developed in the 70's.
And also don't forget that this is a PRACTICAL Boat Owner forum - and if something is cost-effective, useful, and easily installed, then why shouldn't it be used? The particular bee in my bonnet, having come from a different outdoor activity, is how conservative the sailing fraternity is when it comes to using techniques and equipment from a different sphere
Don't forget though that synthetic tape came to sailing from climbing (as have several other things), and it was knotted to make loops and slings for many years before stitching was developed in the 70's.
And also don't forget that this is a PRACTICAL Boat Owner forum - and if something is cost-effective, useful, and easily installed, then why shouldn't it be used? The particular bee in my bonnet, having come from a different outdoor activity, is how conservative the sailing fraternity is when it comes to using techniques and equipment from a different sphere
donncha
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It is, however, much to be preferred to the simple overhand knot (picture on right) which can bind so tightly that undoing it can be a real inconvenience.
[/ QUOTE ]
The main advantage of the figure of eight over the standard overhand knot is that it is easier to untie.
From Grog:
"It is, however, much to be preferred to the simple overhand knot (picture on right) which can bind so tightly that undoing it can be a real inconvenience."
It is, however, much to be preferred to the simple overhand knot (picture on right) which can bind so tightly that undoing it can be a real inconvenience.
[/ QUOTE ]
The main advantage of the figure of eight over the standard overhand knot is that it is easier to untie.
From Grog:
"It is, however, much to be preferred to the simple overhand knot (picture on right) which can bind so tightly that undoing it can be a real inconvenience."
damo
Well-Known Member
If you an overhand knot as a stopper knot on eg a genoa sheet or halyard then it rarely, if ever in my experience, gets loaded enough to bind tight. Certainly if used for tying a loop then a Fig-8 is vastly superior (but not as easy to undo as a bowline of course /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
dickh
Well-Known Member
I woulod recommend having sewn loops on each end, done by a sailmaker on an industrial sewing machine or get them made up to size by someone such as Jimmy Green Marine. I use a snap shackle on each end so they can be easily clipped on to the U bolts - this way you can quickly remove them and stow below so that they don't degrade from UV(the biggest killer of webbing jackstays). I've done this on two boats and it's no problem fitting and removing them on each trip. I made them the exact size and marked them P and S as they were slightly different lengths.
Allan
Well-Known Member
I dont want to start a row, like above, but I have always been told not to use a snap shackle if using a halyard to go up the mast. Surely this would also apply to Jack stays?
Allan
Allan
damo
Well-Known Member
There could be different arguments there:
Obviously pretty essential to use a locking device for a safety-critical situation like being suspended on a rope - personally I use screwgate or twistlock karabiners, which are impossible to release accidentally. I also use them on my safety lines, when another advantage they have is that they are light alloy, and so cause less damage to shins and gelcoat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
When clipped to rope or tape jackstays a snaplink is unlikely to pop open (but on a u-bolt they can twist off frighteningly easily), and there is an argument that a locking device which cannot be released quickly can compromise safety eg going over the side and being dragged through the water. A double-action clip like a Wichard may be impossible to release with cold hands and a panic.
When my kids were smaller they physically couldn't open the clip on their safety lines, so I fitted climbing screwgates.
(Anyway, I don't do "rows"! A difference of opinion maybe... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Obviously pretty essential to use a locking device for a safety-critical situation like being suspended on a rope - personally I use screwgate or twistlock karabiners, which are impossible to release accidentally. I also use them on my safety lines, when another advantage they have is that they are light alloy, and so cause less damage to shins and gelcoat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
When clipped to rope or tape jackstays a snaplink is unlikely to pop open (but on a u-bolt they can twist off frighteningly easily), and there is an argument that a locking device which cannot be released quickly can compromise safety eg going over the side and being dragged through the water. A double-action clip like a Wichard may be impossible to release with cold hands and a panic.
When my kids were smaller they physically couldn't open the clip on their safety lines, so I fitted climbing screwgates.
(Anyway, I don't do "rows"! A difference of opinion maybe... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
