JABSCO HEAD PROBLEM Attention Peggy Hall

[Tantramar]

I have a Jabsco Twist 'n' Lock head installed on my sailboat and it normally works perfectly. Because it is below the vessel water line it has vented loops installed on the head intake water and discharge hoses. There is a Y valve that directs the effluent to either the holding tank or overboard.
I own and have read Peggy Halls book "Get Rid Of Boat Odours" and it appears everything on my boat is installed correctly. The other obvious things such as a clogged holding tank vent have been looked at and I haven't identified any problems.
The problem is that 2 or 3 times a season, water (that may contain substances previously deposited in the head) finds its way back into the bowl. I know the solution is to replace the joker valve and the base valve gasket and I do this. After the repair everything works fine for a while but the problem recurs. It is my understanding that these components should last longer than a few months.
Any suggestions would be appreciated - especially from the Headmistress.
John
SV Tantramar

 

[NormanS]

You don't say whether you are pumping to the sea or pumping to the holding tank, but either way, if shit is coming back to the bowl, you're not pumping enough.

 

[ex-Gladys]

...and the lovely Peggy has retired, no longer posts here unfortunately for us all....

 

[vyv_cox]

Your problem is that the upward leg of the discharge hose loop contains salt deposits. After cleaning or replacing the joker valve these deposits tend to fall downwards, re-depositing on the lips of the joker valve. I suggest you remove the loop and either replace it or clean it. Before someone suggests that hydrochloric acid/vinegar/citric acid will do the job for you, it won't. I have come across the problem many times, mainly due to the conflict between pumping 30 strokes or so and avoiding filling the holding tank in half a day.

 

[Norman_E]

If you are pumping to a holding tank that is above the level of the toilet bowl then flowback problems are almost inevitable. Joker valves very rarely seal effectively. If you look at a brand new one you can usually see light through it, and in use any bit of debris or scale will stop it sealing. The most effective seal in a Jabsco toilet is the flap valve that is held down by the twist and lock feature. That feature brings its own problem however, because the pressure exerted on the flap to hold it down can cause it to distort slightly. Salt water and urine combine to produce hard scale, and even a tiny amount can prevent the flap valve getting a perfect seal. Changing the valves, and ensuring that the seating of the flap valve is clean and undamaged generally effects a cure, but it is never a permanent cure. I have two suggestions. Firstly a total ban on putting paper down the toilet. Secondly, if you have enough water capacity on board change to fresh water flushing after thoroughly descaling the toilet. On my boat I have actually fitted non return valves into the output hose, immediately after the joker valve, and that, coupled with fresh water flushing and a paper ban has effected a cure.

EDIT, Vyv has reminded me. When I changed to fresh water flushing I replaced the output hoses because the old ones had scale in them.

 

[RichardS]

What Vyv says is by far the best solution , i.e. change the outlet hose for a new one and your troubles will be gone, as you will never be able to clear the hose with acid.

However, you do have an intermediate option in that the T & L base gasket valve will actually seal very well unlike the joker valve which is much less reliable. Plus the base gasket valve is easy to de-calcify as it's the lowest part of the system.

So if you use the dilute acids Vyv mentions but only pour in a hundred mls and do an outlet pump or two so that the acid is still visible in the plastic conduit at bottom of the pan, you can be sure that acid is now on both sides of the base valve. Leave that for 30 mins or so with the T & L valve open (handle up a bit) and you should find that the bottom valve is now sealing properly again.

Just repeat when it starts to leak again .... much easier than removing and cleaning the valve. However, as others have said, using a lot of flushing will delay the onset of the problem although will fill your holding tank.

Richard

Just thought to add .... when I leave my boat I flush through very thoroughly and leave the handle slightly raised and the valve flip handle over to the left, water inlet, position. These are not the positions recommended by Jabsco but they are the positions which will stop premature deformation of the rubber valves. Jabsco want you to have to change your valves as often as possible, of course.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Surely it's easier to wee in the sink ?

Saves flushing, less wear on the heads and doesn't fill the holding tank.

EDIT : Obviously give it a rinse before doing the washing up.

 

[RichardS]

Surely it's easier to wee in the sink ?

Saves flushing, less wear on the heads and doesn't fill the holding tank.

EDIT : Obviously give it a rinse before doing the washing up.

Number 2s? :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

Number 2s? :ambivalence:

Richard

Best use the heads for those

 

[LadyInBed]

Surely it's easier to wee in the sink ?

Saves flushing, less wear on the heads and doesn't fill the holding tank.

EDIT : Obviously give it a rinse before doing the washing up.

Having read about urine / salt water causing scale I have switched to using a plastic milk container with the top cut off to pee in.
Head use is cut by at least 90% !

 

[NormanS]

Your problem is that the upward leg of the discharge hose loop contains salt deposits. After cleaning or replacing the joker valve these deposits tend to fall downwards, re-depositing on the lips of the joker valve. I suggest you remove the loop and either replace it or clean it. Before someone suggests that hydrochloric acid/vinegar/citric acid will do the job for you, it won't. I have come across the problem many times, mainly due to the conflict between pumping 30 strokes or so and avoiding filling the holding tank in half a day.

Hydrochloric acid did indeed work for me. After a total blockage some years ago, managed to get it cleared with a flexible wire drain cleaner (well done Aldi), and then dosed a couple of times with B&Q Brickcleaner, which contains hydrochloric acid. Since that exciting episode we now pump at least seven strokes per metre of outlet pipe, and have had absolutely no problems ever since. No pipes were changed.

 

[vyv_cox]

Hydrochloric acid did indeed work for me. After a total blockage some years ago, managed to get it cleared with a flexible wire drain cleaner (well done Aldi), and then dosed a couple of times with B&Q Brickcleaner, which contains hydrochloric acid. Since that exciting episode we now pump at least seven strokes per metre of outlet pipe, and have had absolutely no problems ever since. No pipes were changed.

We use our holding tank for the majority of the time, which is most of six months of the year, so flushing copiously is not often an option for us. Removing our toilet hose is a major operation due to its location behind furniture and inside lockers. When we had obvious joker valve and poor flushing problems last year I tried hydrochloric acid several times but the problems persisted. Eventually I gave up and replaced the hose. This was the situation at about the top of the loop, cut in half to aid removal. I then whacked the two halves of the hose against the end of the pontoon and was amazed at how much salt came out.

 

[NormanS]

We use our holding tank for the majority of the time, which is most of six months of the year, so flushing copiously is not often an option for us. Removing our toilet hose is a major operation due to its location behind furniture and inside lockers. When we had obvious joker valve and poor flushing problems last year I tried hydrochloric acid several times but the problems persisted. Eventually I gave up and replaced the hose. This was the situation at about the top of the loop, cut in half to aid removal. I then whacked the two halves of the hose against the end of the pontoon and was amazed at how much salt came out.

We have, but don't normally use a holding tank, so apart from the effort involved, have no impediment to lots of pumping. I suspect that your lack of success with hydrochloric acid was the difficulty in getting it to do its work at the top of the loop. The worst of my blockage was at the lowest point, where the hose passes from one side of the boat to the other via the bilge, so relatively easy to hold the acid in the right place.

 

[alan]

My experience is that the problem with back-flow is almost invariably the joker valve. Sometimes they last a year or more and other times they last as little as two months. Anytime I have had this problem it has been cured by replacing the joker valve.

Alan.

 

[RichardS]

My experience is that the problem with back-flow is almost invariably the joker valve. Sometimes they last a year or more and other times they last as little as two months. Anytime I have had this problem it has been cured by replacing the joker valve.

Alan.

But the OP has a Twist & Lock toilet and these were introduced specifically because of the inherent weakness of the joker valve as a backflow preventer.

Richard

 

[vyv_cox]

My experience is that the problem with back-flow is almost invariably the joker valve. Sometimes they last a year or more and other times they last as little as two months. Anytime I have had this problem it has been cured by replacing the joker valve.

Alan.

Nobody (including the OP) is arguing against that. The difference is that with a clean discharge hose the time elapsed before the joker valve starts to leak is much greater than if it is clogged. I am talking about liveaboard use with the toilet in daily use.

 

[RupertW]

Nobody (including the OP) is arguing against that. The difference is that with a clean discharge hose the time elapsed before the joker valve starts to leak is much greater than if it is clogged. I am talking about liveaboard use with the toilet in daily use.

Agreed (although we don't liveaboard our boat was ex-charter so we found the hoses in a similar state when changing them along with our joker valves. I think having a decent head of water in the discharge pipe going up to the holding tank helps keep the valve shut - ours is a about 1.5m.

It is good to see the ratio of people saying "do lots of pumping" in the thread is lower than normal as if people are becoming more familiar with holding tanks where the opposite rule applies unless you want to change anchorages every other night if you have a few guests on board. And please don't get me onto those who think that macerators are acceptable in anchorages where everyone swims.

 

[Bilgediver]

...and the lovely Peggy has retired, no longer posts here unfortunately for us all....

Yes retired but currently having a sabbatical from retirement on the USA Sailboat Forum for a few weeks. However her latest book is available on Amazon

The New Get Rid of Boat Odors: A Boat Owner's Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor Paperback – 1 Feb 2016
by Peggie Hall (Author)


Plese note it is Peggie and not Peggy which will improve google searches

 

[Tantramar]

Yes retired but currently having a sabbatical from retirement on the USA Sailboat Forum for a few weeks. However her latest book is available on Amazon

The New Get Rid of Boat Odors: A Boat Owner's Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor Paperback – 1 Feb 2016
by Peggie Hall (Author)


Plese note it is Peggie and not Peggy which will improve google searches

 

[Tantramar]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Sorry that Peggie (spelling corrected) is not available but I have received some good information just the same. The discharge hoses are relatively recent (perhaps 2 years old) and when I changed them (they were at least 8 years old) they looked a bit like the photo submitted by NormanS.
Depending where we are and what is being deposited in the head determines if it is directed to the holding tank or overboard. I don't see how this makes a difference because the holding tank is lower than the vented loop and Y valve. Anything downstream of the Y valve either flows over the side or into the holding tank by gravity.
The suggestion that salt/urine crystals form in the hose between the head and Y valve and then find their way back into the base valve gasket (flap valve) and cause the leaking back problem is possible. Using fresh water to flush is not an option so I don't know how to prevent that particular problem. I also don't understand why TP would make a difference if the problem is the salt/urine crystals. I will change out the hose from the head to the Y valve again and see what happens but I see this as a short term solution.