Italian 2nd hand boats - No service history the norm?

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Dirtyrat

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I have seen two 2nd hand flybridge boats (same model/year) in Italy that I am very interested in. I visited both boats over two days, and would like to make an offer on one of them. 5 years old, interior like new, 2 x D4-300's, (and with the GBP/EUR rate right now) VERY good price. The boat seems like a credit to it's owner.

Massive issue though - Service History... both boats - missing! (All other paperwork seem ok though)

I was told separately by both brokers that in Italy, most servicing is done cash in hand, and it is very rare to get any kind of invoice, never mind stamping the service book. Fair enough one of the brokers saying this, but both have said it independently. Is this a coincidence?

I feel very uneasy about this lack of full service history, even though the owner has really looked after the boat, and the engines look 'like new'. I simply can't believe that the owner has maintained the rest of the boat so well, without servicing the engines. There are unused original spare oil / fuel filters impellers etc inside the boat too.

Views? It's a boat from 2010 with 150 hours on it. Worth the risk? I don't want to save £20k now, only to have to spend £30k+ next year on it!

As always any helpful advice welcome. Anyone experienced similar issues in Italy (or Spain/Greece/France/Malta etc) and should I automatically rule this boat out?
 
Whitelighter said:
Get a full mechanical survey and take oil samples from the engines and drives. This will give you a snap shot of condition.

My experience is that this is not uncommon all over Europe
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Jez is an expert on buying in Europe! Listen, and listen well. He has learnt through experience!
 
It's a case of your gut feeling.
From my experiance buying a boat in Italy one comes across two prices that they offer you it's your choise .
White price on paper with VAT and receipt .
Black price cash only , substatially lower no paper Vat or receipt .
Eg a truck of diesel € 1-65 white price for 2000L ,or € 1 black price .
Same applies for parts /services like engines service .
Have a look @ the filters , belts and rub some oil between fingers and smell it ,look in the filler cap .listen to them ,look for smoke etc.
Go in a test run ,open the hatch have a look at WOT .
Make a decision -ITs the Oil really that ought to have been changed regularly .
Air filters go black after 10 hrs , and if clogged symptoms show ( google this for VP d4 ) same for fuel .
Not convinced a snapshot of 150 hrs oil analysis will help ?
If its essentially a minter else where -then chances are It had fresh oil .
With the drives if it's got them as others have said they need checking ,they cause probs -leak water in ,even with a fully stamped up service book , a seal can pop 24 hrs after a VP trained guy has serviced them ,so that book if it exists is pretty worthless .
 
When a full set of oil samples costs <£250 in the scheme of things is it worth not doing?

I am fu**ing glad I had them done on the Azimut, and having them done on Seralia got me €3500 of servicing work included in the sale
 
They are worth doing -it's just interpreting a snapshot as opposed to seeing a trend over 6 monthly samples over past 5 Y .
Motor industry with arguably similar value high end vehicles just relies on marque specialist having a look .( but I guess there usually is a stamed up book too ) -
 
I'd be relaxed
1. 150 hours is nowt even if they have never been serviced. Think 5000 - 6000 miles in a car, that's all
2. Get oil sample as with any boat buy. It is NOT a snapshot. It's an accumulation over the life of the oil
3. It is v common for Euro boats not to have service records even in non black cash countries. I do keep the fsh papers on my boats but sometimes wonder why I bother. When I sold my last sq78 @350 hours the buyer never asked for fsh even though spending 1.8m. Ditto the sq58 I sold before that. I think it is perhaps UK people who fret about fsh
 
Dirtyrat said:
It's a boat from 2010 with 150 hours on it. Worth the risk?
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Even if it has never been serviced, and given a 100 hour service interval, it seems to me no particular risk. Is there oil showing on the dispstick? oil pressure okay? does it run and perform okay ?
 
I don't know why anyone gets hung up on documentary evidence of service history. What matters is the condition of the boat as it is now. If its obvious that somebody has looked after the boat generally, its going to be highly unlikely that they've skimped on servicing. In any case, a sheaf of service invoices doesn't prove that the work was done competently or diligently. Also a sheaf of service invoices should not stop you having a thorough engine survey carried out by a competent technician (preferably with the engines under load during the seatrial) together with an oil analysis (assuming the oil hasn't recently been changed). Thats going to tell you far more about the condition of the engines than any bits of paper

I've bought 13 boats over about 25yrs both in the UK and Europe and I don't think I've had a bunch of previous service invoices with any of them. As I say the only thing that matters is present condition
 
I've just bought a boat with D4-300s ... service history 'to follow' but I'm not holding my breath. Might get it as the broker is getting the 2 spare keys from the previous owner ... you never know! Unlike buying in the UK I don't think a file full of old paperwork is normal. Luckily I saw the guys doing servicing on the engines and drive legs when I visited and have checked all the oils for 'newness' ... best deal was a 12 month guarantee on everything ... in writing!
Just as well because on the delivery trip one of the legs declined to trim ... mechanic promised any day now but this is France! Nearly as bad as 'dreckly' in Cornwall. As Deleted User says above - condition is everything and this one at 3 years and 140 odd hours is like showroom new ... eat your dinner off anywhere including under the engines. All the systems work which is all that mattered to me and if they don't, they're only 10 miles away! I'm very happy with it - Beneteau Flyer GT38. Don't worry about the paperwork necessarily although I believe some Italians can be tricky buggers!
 
at only 150 hours it almost certainly won't matter if the oil has never been changed (not recommended) - modern oils and engines are very good, I have bought boats with and without service history and as Deleted User said its depends on how well any work on the boat was done. I also wouldn't rely on work done by an "official" service agent either. Take the boat for a good thrash and see how it behaves, just watch the oil pressure and temperatures closely. If its got outdrives just assume you are going to have to change the rams and replace all the belows anyway. If they turn out later to be OK then thats a bonus.
 
Mine didn't come with service history but I spoke to the mechanic who confirmed he'd serviced it two years previously. Not ideal but Italians seem to have a fear of paperwork. Might be worth asking who serviced it and give them a call (have someone who speaks Italian do it?)
The oil will be fine, I'd imagine, at that low hours but one thing to check is the engine anodes (and other, normal anodes)
 
rafiki_ said:
Not so much a fear of paperwork but some Italians have a "fear of taxes..." :)

(Runs for cover before MM gets his light sabre out.....)
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LOL, no worries, if there's a correction I would make to your sentence is that aversion is more appropriate than fear.

The sweeping generalization I usually argue against is the one related to IT being worse than most other Countries - and not just specifically on taxes, but on swindling in general.
I suppose this reputation has something to see with a weird attitude of some Italians, who think that being a swindler is something to be proud of, and are keen to mention in bar talks how they registered their Cayenne as a company utility vehicle, or their gin palace as a charter boat, or whatever.

Fwiw, my personal view on this matter has always been that if we really should make a sweeping generalization, I'd rather appoint the Germans are the best swindlers, because their approach is extremely scientific, carefully thought and professionally organized, as opposed to the amateur and somewhat parochial IT style.
I must say that, till recently, I struggled a bit to defend this viewpoint, in any conversations on these matters.
But at the length, as Launcelot said many years ago, truth will out... :rolleyes:

Back on topic, I'm also in the camp of those who wouldn't be worried by the lack of service history.
With the only used boat I ever bought that was in a similar situation (few years old, little engine hours, ZERO service docs), I neither made a survey nor an oil analysis, just a visual inspection and sea trial.
Quite possibly, my best boat purchase ever.
 
Well ... ... ... ... after reading all your advice, it seems I better make an offer then!
I'll still get the survey done with a Volvo rep onboard for the sea trial, and I'll look to get the oil samples done, but all systems go! Thanks to all that took the time to reply.


You can all standby for my next thread entitled "Breakdown - Any good Volvo servicing agents in [place name]". (or hopefully not!) :)
 
Naah, but we all have the popcorn ready for some pics and clips of your sea trial! :encouragement:
In which part of IT is she, btw? Just curious - all the very best, anyway.
 
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