It was all going so smoothly....

[dylanwinter]

The trouble is....

The trouble with threads like this is that it puts anyone off notifying anyone if they have a problem.

Having read this I woould now be worried abut telling the coast guard that I might be later arriving than I thought because my engine was playing up and I was waiting for an extra 24 hours for the wiind to arrive

I would not want to have been towed in under such circumstances - but once you have called the CG and they have summoned the life boat....to refuse would have been crazy - so the poster did the right thing assuming he was only alerting the coast guard rather than calling for help.

I only have a hand held so it would be quite likely that it would be hard to speak to anyone.

there is no doubt that the crews enjoy what they are doing - and a good burn up across flat sea must be brilliant in one of those life-booats - certainly a nicer way to spend a sunny day than the day job

and they get to add another tick to the stats and a lot of guinness that night

the trouble is that the end result is that if some-one like me has a problem then I would probably not tell anyone at all about it. End up spending the night out at sea trying to stay awake in case I got mowed down

That can't be good

It would be equally bad if the life booats were reduced to nothing more than a voluntary AA

Thats what I think anyway.

Dylan

PS why don't the sailing hacks post on these subjects.

there are times when I think that apart from snooks and the very occasional posting from one of the hacks not many of them sail that much - or just as bad - they don't enjoy writing

 

[Croak]

I was a bit suprised at the OP.

I have just (nearly) completed a 300 mile delivery of an new unknown boat.

I don't understand why you hadn't seen the weather forcast and done a "What if" the engine failed and there was no wind, senario.

There were lots of potential hazzards with my trip, but that one seems obvious.

Not having a go, it is nice to see how other people think in a similar situation.

 

[clyst]

Look, the owner is new to the whole boat owning thing and diesel engines are a bit of a Mystery to him apart from, as I said earlier, the basics.
I was asked along to help sail the thing across from L. End to Ireland.
Im not an expert on engines either.
I'm sure if we had people of your calibre on board there would have been no need to call anyone.
As we both knew we wouldn't be able to get the engine going, I issued a pan pan to alert other vessels in the area of a becalmed yacht while we pondered what to do next.
This was picked up by Roslare.
Perhaps you'd better phone the LB station and ask their opinion. Ask why they didn't put someone aboard with some poly hose while you're at it (good idea by the way, I'll log that in memory. Not sure if there was any on board though, or any clips).
So what would you have done assuming you couldn't fix the engine and couldn't sail and the CG told you the LB was on the way?
BTW The LB Station actually posted a short video of the approach, tow and arrival and were more than happy to have helped.
I look forward to you answers.
I'm always willing to learn from those more experienced than I and this has certainly been an experience from which I've learned a lot about diesel engines.
I'm actively looking for good practical courses so I'll have a better idea next time.

The RNLI is not an AA service they are there to save lives . Tha facts were that at the time you notified the CG neither you nor the boat were in danger . It was a flat calm day . You were in absolutely no danger at the time.
You called the coast guard and you are now safe . That is the main thing . Did did you have a workable passage plan ??

Unprepared and inexperience for such an off shore trip ? That is for you to decide

Bottom line is is that it was a simple failure . A short RYA Diesel course probably would have given you / Owner the necessary skills to repair .

 

[CFarr]

The RNLI is not an AA service they are there to save lives . Tha facts were that at the time you notified the CG neither you nor the boat were in danger . It was a flat calm day . You were in absolutely no danger at the time.
You called the coast guard and you are now safe . That is the main thing . Did did you have a workable passage plan ??

Unprepared and inexperience for such an off shore trip ? That is for you to decide

Bottom line is is that it was a simple failure . A short RYA Diesel course probably would have given you / Owner the necessary skills to repair .

So should I not have issued a pan pan then?
I thought I was being responsible letting others in the area know we were unable to shift out of their way.
You've all been quick to have a pop but it wasn't like what you are thinking.
No one has yet answered my question as to what you would have done in the same circumstances and if you couldn't fix the motor?

I'm also interested to know what contingency plans you make for an engine failure?

I was asked to crew due to my experience of sailing in the winds and seas we might encounter and Indeed posted on here asking for advice on the in mast reefing system so that I was as prepared as I could be for that.
Yes, we had a passage plan and the engine had a compete overhaul in Levington, new filters etc, tank cleaned, new diesel, the works and it had been very reliable all along the south coast.

The weather window was pretty short, with this period of calm followed quickly by high winds and big seas which is why we went when we did.

 

[dylanwinter]

you did the right thing

I think you did do the right thing

shipping had to be warned that there was a vessel with no power

I think that it was the coast guard who responded to the pan pan as though it was a mayday

in the end I think the rescue people probably turned out because they wanted to - I assume if they had a better rescue to go for they would have gone elsewhere as they authorities knew you were in little or no danger

Dylan

 

[shaunksb]

The RNLI is not an AA service they are there to save lives . Tha facts were that at the time you notified the CG neither you nor the boat were in danger . It was a flat calm day . You were in absolutely no danger at the time.
You called the coast guard and you are now safe . That is the main thing . Did did you have a workable passage plan ??

Unprepared and inexperience for such an off shore trip ? That is for you to decide

Bottom line is is that it was a simple failure . A short RYA Diesel course probably would have given you / Owner the necessary skills to repair .

I think you don't fully understand the role of the coastguard. A drifting yacht is a problem for them and they will deal with it as they see fit. The OP clearly stated that they didn't call for help.

"Unprepared and inexperience for such an off shore trip ?"

Not really relevent that the failure occured offshore. It would have caused more problems if it was at the entrance to Portsmouth harbour.

Should everyone be able to strip down and bypass a fuel supply problem before they are allowed to go sailing?

Could you start your engine if your starter motor failed?

I am sure that both the CG and the RNLI would see this as routine and be pleased to be of assistance.


.

 

[CFarr]

in the end I think the rescue people probably turned out because they wanted to - I assume if they had a better rescue to go for they would have gone elsewhere as they authorities knew you were in little or no danger

Dylan

Exactly.

 

[clyst]

So should I not have issued a pan pan then?
I thought I was being responsible letting others in the area know we were unable to shift out of their way.
You've all been quick to have a pop but it wasn't like what you are thinking.
No one has yet answered my question as to what you would have done in the same circumstances and if you couldn't fix the motor?

I'm also interested to know what contingency plans you make for an engine failure?

I was asked to crew due to my experience of sailing in the winds and seas we might encounter and Indeed posted on here asking for advice on the in mast reefing system so that I was as prepared as I could be for that.
Yes, we had a passage plan and the engine had a compete overhaul in Levington, new filters etc, tank cleaned, new diesel, the works and it had been very reliable all along the south coast.

The weather window was pretty short, with this period of calm followed quickly by high winds and big seas which is why we went when we did.

My comments are my opinion thats all . You did what you felt was right at the time and you live to tell the tale . Thats whats important and nodoubt have learnt a lot from the experience.

BTW someone commented that you were right to broadcast a pan pan because you were drifting with no power . If every boat which was becalmed broadcasted a pan pan and remember its not compulsary to have an engine fitted the RNLI wouldn't be arround to cope with a real emergency .

NB I'm not suggesting that you insisted nor requested that the CG requested the RNLI attended but the fact remains that a life boat attended a situation where lives were not in danger .

 

[snooks]

Personally I think the OP was right to call the coastguard, whether it was a Pan Pan that's up to the people on board at the time, they did, they are here to tell the tale

I feel more comfortable issuing a Pan Pan in the middle of the Celtic Sea than I would in the Solent. Would I have sent a Pan Pan, prolly not but I'm the skipper and it's my choice, may be a Securite or just a regular call to the Coastguard to let them know incase my family start to worry and I'm outside mobile range. I try to be as self sufficient as possible, and would only use a PP if I had to, may be that's wrong and the sooner the better?

Engines go wrong, it's a fact of life, even a well serviced one can have problems, loose hoses, dirt in the fuel, failure with age etc which can incapacitate the iron tops'l. It's not the fault of anybody, these things happen, but you don't expect it to happen on and engine which has been looked after.

We had Pixie's engine serviced before we set off last year( but they failed to replace two copper washers which has knackered the anode bolt and sent oil leaking over the engine), on our 3 month trip we still had air in the fuel system twice, ropes around the prop, we needed a new alternator, head gasket and cylinder head and thermostat last year. On the way back we needed a new exhaust elbow. I look after our engine, but unless you buy a boat from new, or get her re engined you don't know it's history, so it's unfair to blame the owner of the OP's boat.

Everyone has a reliable engine, until it breaks down. And unless your engine has broken down before it will come as a surprise when your trusty donk starts acting up.

I also doubt the RYA course would have helped with small air leaks around the filter. It didn't help me! It took a mechanic 1/2 a day to discover the copper washer on the filter screw was slightly damaged and letting air into our system, and one of the hose connections wasn't the right pitch thread, but we inherited this problem so we were none the wiser that at some point in her history this had been bodged. The problem only showed up when I moved the fuel filter from low down inaccessible at the back of the engine, to higher up at the front, and the extra work the pump was having to do once the fuel level was below the filter was enough to suck air into the system.

 

[Croak]

I'm also interested to know what contingency plans you make for an engine failure?

In my situation I had three engines that would move the boat in calm conditions, I have no idea in your situation as I don't have the details, But it could be:-
Don't go if there is no wind.
Have an outboard bracket with a decent motor,
or having a decent motor on the tender and tying it alongside.


With more time I might come up with more. But it is far from unusual to have an engine problem on a delivery trip.

 

[[2068]]

In almost all cases, it's not the skipper that decides what assistance is tasked to a casualty vessel, but the CG. So, skipper tells CG they are becalmed with no engine, CG sends lifeboat to assist. RNLI would much rather burn a few hundred litres of lifeboat diesel than deal with a beached yacht being broken up on the rocks, hundreds of litres of diesel in the sea, and crew clinging to the base of a cliff.

It's not just the current situation, it's the situation it could become.

 

[snooks]

In my situation I had three engines that would move the boat in calm conditions, I have no idea in your situation as I don't have the details, But it could be:-
Don't go if there is no wind.
Have an outboard bracket with a decent motor,
or having a decent motor on the tender and tying it alongside.

With more time I might come up with more. But it is far from unusual to have an engine problem on a delivery trip.

What's the difference between a delivery trip and a normal sailing holiday? and why should a delivery be more susceptible to engine problems? No one told our boat we were on holiday, it seems she thought we were doing a delivery, it's obvious now why we had all the engine problems

Would it be realistic to always carry enough petrol to drive the boat 70 miles to the nearest harbour (or to put it simply to motor under outboard from Portsmouth to Cherbourg) for the trip the OP was intending to make?

Of course it isn't.

I carry 5 lt of petrol, any more that that and I don't have anywhere safe to keep it on board our yacht. That 5 lts would give me about 1 hour of motoring at say 2.5 knots with yacht in alongside tow. So you are suggesting the next time I cross the Celtic sea I should take an extra 28 litres of Petrol to carry me70 miles without tide, on the off chance my primary and secondary source of propulsion fails, so what happens if the OB fails? Should I get out the oars before alerting the coastguard?

The OP had an two reliable methods of propulsion already, sails and an engine. The outboard would have been of very limited use, like getting into a Marina or onto a buoy. You cannot plan for every eventuality, much as you might want to.

As has been pointed out the OP alerted the coastguard, it was the coastguards call. Much as you are skipper of your own boat, after alerting the coastguard they will take actions they believe are right for the lives on board a vessel.

 

[savageseadog]

I'm absolutely dumbfounded. It's this kind of situation that will give credence to the calls for regulation and allow further inroads to our freedoms.
I imagine the coastguard assessed the situation and decided to take charge, the skipper could have refused assistance or suggested it wasn't necessary but I assume he didn't do so. The vessel was in no immediate danger, there is a small amount of shipping in that area and the chance of being run down is very small. The very fact that someone has unnecessarily called the coastguard tells them the game is up, a misuse of VHF I feel.

 

[Croak]

What's the difference between a delivery trip and a normal sailing holiday?

Quite a lot realy.

Unknown boat, possibly unused for some time, more chance of things going wrong.


"Would it be realistic to always carry enough petrol to drive the boat 70 miles to the nearest harbour (or to put it simply to motor under outboard from Portsmouth to Cherbourg) for the trip the OP was intending to make?"

In my opinion yes. It' called being self sufficient. (Newlyn to Kilmore, so only fuel for half of that)

 

[snowleopard]

I suggest everyone who is carping here a) read all the OP's replies fully and b) refer in particular to his reply in Post #14

He didn't call the CG, merely tried to alert nearby ships to avoid being run down. The skipper might have made a better choice of calling securite rather than panpan but I doubt it would have made a difference. As I mentioned in post 11, there is no arguing with the CG when they decide to send a lifeboat.

As to not calling the CG when in difficulty, I agree. When I had my problem - holed above the WL in rough conditions 20 miles off the Humber - I called the CG with a panpan to tell them my situation just as a heads-up in case things got worse and they tasked the LB to escort us in. If it happened again I would do the same but without the panpan prefix.

 

[fireball]

I can only echo SL's comments. (well - except I've not been holed - even above the waterline - yet!)

Panpan or Securite - perhaps a securite would've been more appropriate - to warn shipping of their presence - would the CG act differently? Possibly not.

The OP didn't request a tow - but would've been a fool to turn it down when offered.
Should the OP been able to rectify the engine fault? In this case it was a simple failure - but what if it hadn't have been - you can't always rebuild an engine at sea.
Should the OP have had a second (or 3rd) propulsion system - I'm with Snooks on this one - I have an outboard and would use that - but I only carry 5L of fuel for it - so it is a last resort and anyway - what would you do when that goes bang too?

All these incidents give the sailor experience and hopefully understanding - a simple failure like this may not happen again - but if it does - it'll be on the list of things to check - my list as well now ...

 

[RichardS]

The CG decided to come out. They would not have done this if they felt there was no need to or they had pressing engagements elsewhere. The CG also presumably knew that bad weather was on the way. Maybe it was a quiet day and they wanted a training exercise - fine.

I learn a lot from threads like this but if fellow forumites take to bashing people who appear to have acted responsibly (even though others with different or more experience might have acted differently) then people will simply stop posting up their experiences for fear of being attacked and we will all be the loser.

I do want to hear from those who would have acted differently but please let's be generous to all!

Richard

 

[clyst]

The CG decided to come out. They would not have done this if they felt there was no need to or they had pressing engagements elsewhere. The CG also presumably knew that bad weather was on the way. Maybe it was a quiet day and they wanted a training exercise - fine.

I learn a lot from threads like this but if fellow forumites take to bashing people who appear to have acted responsibly (even though others with different or more experience might have acted differently) then people will simply stop posting up their experiences for fear of being attacked and we will all be the loser.

I do want to hear from those who would have acted differently but please let's be generous to all!

Richard

Its not that that CG requested life boat attended its more a Pan Pan was broadcasted in benign conditions. The causality was a yacht that was becalmed . The fact that the engine had packed up didn't impede the yachts primary propulsion . Had it been a power boat then probably a Pan Pan would have been appropriate.

 

[fireball]

Its not that that CG requested life boat attended its more a Pan Pan was broadcasted in benign conditions. The causality was a yacht that was becalmed . The fact that the engine had packed up didn't impede the yachts primary propulsion . Had it been a power boat then probably a Pan Pan would have been appropriate.

Basically they had NO propulsion - flat calm = no wind ... backup = engine ... engine kaput = no propulsion ..

Although I agree that a Pan Pan wasn't the right call - the OP (seems to) recognise that as well - a Securite would've been more appropriate in the circumstances. But I doubt if it would've changed the response by the CG.

A vessel with no appreciable propulsion is a hazard - you normally hear CG's asking if the vessel can anchor - as at least that removes the "where are they" variable - but perhaps this wasn't an option for the OP and the CG took the decision away from them.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

"Would it be realistic to always carry enough petrol to drive the boat 70 miles to the nearest harbour (or to put it simply to motor under outboard from Portsmouth to Cherbourg) for the trip the OP was intending to make?"

In my opinion yes. It' called being self sufficient. (Newlyn to Kilmore, so only fuel for half of that)

That's unrealistic for any delivery I've ever done. Who's going to pay for it? The owner won't. What are you going to do with it when you arrive - flog it to the natives? How are you going to carry it? Spend a whole load more out of the skipper's fees on cans? Does having a whole load of cans of petrol on the deck cooking in the sun in case the engine breaks down really make the trip any safer? What about a trip where you are 100's of miles from land? Do you take 100's of cans of petrol?

Have you ever bought that amount of petrol for any delivery you have done in case the main engine failed?

Sufficient food and water to survive a delayed trip because of unpredictable weather (including having to wait for wind) is my idea of self sufficiency. Not gallons and gallons of petrol for a dinghy's outboard engine.