duncanmack
Well-Known Member
Come on Marsupial, stop beating about the bush. Tell him what you really think! 
Is white diesel better than red?
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
'so an engine that rattles like a bucket full of scrap iron has nothing wrong with it - interesting, backfies and misses due to contaminate/poor fuel are not an indication of fuel quality - strange world you live in'.
Sounds like a vessel crying out for properly designed multi stage fuel filtration and nothing more..........
Sounds like a vessel crying out for properly designed multi stage fuel filtration and nothing more..........
LONG_KEELER
Well-Known Member
I know nothing about the subject but do know of two instances that may be relevant.
As Snowleopard mentions, the Cetane reading may well be a factor. I know of a major powerboat distributor where their high powered turbo diesel engines spluttered and coughed having been filled with Red Diesel. The systems were cleaned and had no further problems only running on White Diesel. They now have a condition that they must only run on white because of the Cetane reading.
The other instance was when I had lunch in a cafe with a tanker driver. He delivered , White , Red and Aviation fuel from his tanker. He stated that Red was a very dirty fuel and recommended to me that I only use white in my engine. I have been running my engine for about 9 months on White and will be very interested to see what the filters will be like.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
What a jumble of variables being juggled here!
Cetane, sulphur content, dirt, colour, water content, viscosity are each completely separate issues. Any one of these elements can change independently of the others.
So the colour may change when dye is added, but all other characteristics remain the same. The only difference is that the customs man will want to know why your leisure yacht is using duty free fuel.
Sure, use different cetane, different sulphur, stuff full of dirt and water, and your engine may well behave very differently. Independently of its colour.
Most of the "evidence" against red above sounds like the co-incidence with these other differences, not causation. Change one variable at time, please, before leaping to conclusions.
Cetane, sulphur content, dirt, colour, water content, viscosity are each completely separate issues. Any one of these elements can change independently of the others.
So the colour may change when dye is added, but all other characteristics remain the same. The only difference is that the customs man will want to know why your leisure yacht is using duty free fuel.
Sure, use different cetane, different sulphur, stuff full of dirt and water, and your engine may well behave very differently. Independently of its colour.
Most of the "evidence" against red above sounds like the co-incidence with these other differences, not causation. Change one variable at time, please, before leaping to conclusions.
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snowleopard
Well-Known Member
A quick update on the saga. As you may have realised, it wasn't my boat, I was merely a delivery crew.
In Scheveningen the injector tips were renewed at a cost of €1100. That fixed things for a time and the engine would again rev to 3800 without load. We then motored through the Dutch canals and the Kiel canal. On arriving in Kiel it would again only rev to about 2000 but a change of filters brought it back up to full speed. One problem was that a filter change cost £100 - a spin-on cartridge on the engine from Yanmar and a drop-in element on the pre-filter, a Volvo part.
In Kiel they took various advice and decided to have the tank drained and all the pipes cleaned out. I later heard it cost a further €2600 plus a new tankful of diesel (300 litres was dumped). So far the engine is running OK.
Ouch.
In Scheveningen the injector tips were renewed at a cost of €1100. That fixed things for a time and the engine would again rev to 3800 without load. We then motored through the Dutch canals and the Kiel canal. On arriving in Kiel it would again only rev to about 2000 but a change of filters brought it back up to full speed. One problem was that a filter change cost £100 - a spin-on cartridge on the engine from Yanmar and a drop-in element on the pre-filter, a Volvo part.
In Kiel they took various advice and decided to have the tank drained and all the pipes cleaned out. I later heard it cost a further €2600 plus a new tankful of diesel (300 litres was dumped). So far the engine is running OK.
Ouch.
johnphilip
Well-Known Member
diesel bugs
Half remembered report
Is it not the case that White diesel now has a percentage of biofuel in it, which has a shorter shelf life before degrading further? I believe red still does not suffer this.
Anyone have the actual situation?
Half remembered report
Is it not the case that White diesel now has a percentage of biofuel in it, which has a shorter shelf life before degrading further? I believe red still does not suffer this.
Anyone have the actual situation?
Heckler
Well-Known Member
As you know and have pointed out, red is slightly different, BUT will not have damaged the injectors. Red, because of what it is used for, has the possibility of being contaminated more easily. (storage, small sales volume etc) Contamination is what does the damage to the nozzles, water is usually the culprit.
As I have said before, I worked in Africa and the Middle East, we had all sorts of diesel to work with. In Angola the work boats would pick up from the port in Luanda, it came from an ancient refinery that the Portuguese engineers kept going. It was brown and thicker than normal diesel, it had a lot of sulphur in it. The work boats used 4" hoses for liquid transfer to us and the drill rigs. Consequently there would be water in the hoses, both river and sea water. They would shoot a shot of diesel to us first to "clean" the hose, this would go to the "slop tank" before commencing to pump a full load to us. The fuel would stand and we would fill day tanks for use.
I used to change filters regularly, as it happens, monthly because I worked month on month off and my Portuguese oppo did the same. We never had any probs with injectors or pumps.
White in Europe now has 5% bio added as normal, it also has cetane improvers as you know. Myself, I reckon that red is a better product, heavier, so more lube value, more sulphur, again a better lube value. You get more bang for your buck from a heavier fuel, thats why diesel, inheritently, gives more MPG, think about it! (Thats why gas powered engines deliver less MPG)
Plus the bio additive in white can cause probs, in our older pumps, to the seals.
My own thoughts on your travails is that you or a previous owner have had contaminated fuel at some point and that is what has done for your injectors.
Stu
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Red will smoke a bit more because of the heavier ends in it, most noticeable on our MD22s, lo compression and direct injection, doesnt burn as efficiently when cold. Think 2 strokes.
Stu
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Just been quoted £59 each to fit new tips to my injectors on my MD22
Stu
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
At last the penny may have started to drop...............
Forget, Red, white, blue, commercial off road fuels have been produced to ASTM standards with countries just adopting the ASTM standard and giving it their own designation. The most common is ASTM #2 for Gas Oil (diesel)
We have had talk about misfiring motors, more dock chat about motors which will not run on off road fuel, tanker drivers who have now become fuel experts (remember it was a dumb tanker driver who caused Bucefield oil terminal to blow up).
Within 30 days of refining, all diesel fuel regardless of brand, goes through a natural process called re-polymerization and oxidation. This process forms varnishes and insoluble gums in the fuel by causing the molecules of the fuel to lengthen and bond together. These components now drop to the bottom of the fuel tank and form asphalting also known as diesel sludge. The fuel begins to turn dark in color, starst to take on a distict odour and in most cases causes engines to smoke. Engines can smoke or misfire because some of these clusters in the early stages are small enough in size to pass through inadequate engine filtration and into the combustion chamber. As these clusters increase in size, only part of the molecule gets burned. The rest goes out the exhaust as unburned fuel and smoke.
For those clamoring for “on road fuel” your wish was granted by EU Directive 2009/30/EC, you will be getting what is effectively sulphur free red diesel which will also include an increasing element of organic fuel over time, which has a love affair with water.
If you think you have problems now the fun will really start when supplies of the new fuel come in later in the year.
Unless boat owners get real about ensuring their vessels are fit for purpose, reports of plugged filters and damaged injection systems will simply escalate.
Once again ye shall reap as ye sow.
Forget, Red, white, blue, commercial off road fuels have been produced to ASTM standards with countries just adopting the ASTM standard and giving it their own designation. The most common is ASTM #2 for Gas Oil (diesel)
We have had talk about misfiring motors, more dock chat about motors which will not run on off road fuel, tanker drivers who have now become fuel experts (remember it was a dumb tanker driver who caused Bucefield oil terminal to blow up).
Within 30 days of refining, all diesel fuel regardless of brand, goes through a natural process called re-polymerization and oxidation. This process forms varnishes and insoluble gums in the fuel by causing the molecules of the fuel to lengthen and bond together. These components now drop to the bottom of the fuel tank and form asphalting also known as diesel sludge. The fuel begins to turn dark in color, starst to take on a distict odour and in most cases causes engines to smoke. Engines can smoke or misfire because some of these clusters in the early stages are small enough in size to pass through inadequate engine filtration and into the combustion chamber. As these clusters increase in size, only part of the molecule gets burned. The rest goes out the exhaust as unburned fuel and smoke.
For those clamoring for “on road fuel” your wish was granted by EU Directive 2009/30/EC, you will be getting what is effectively sulphur free red diesel which will also include an increasing element of organic fuel over time, which has a love affair with water.
If you think you have problems now the fun will really start when supplies of the new fuel come in later in the year.
Unless boat owners get real about ensuring their vessels are fit for purpose, reports of plugged filters and damaged injection systems will simply escalate.
Once again ye shall reap as ye sow.
Highland Bear
Well-Known Member
Additives?
Thanks Latestarter.
Will any of the various fuel additives on the market help alleviate these problems or is it simply down to good maintenance of filters?
Thanks Latestarter.
Will any of the various fuel additives on the market help alleviate these problems or is it simply down to good maintenance of filters?
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Take a look at http://www.sbmar.com/main/articles/category/
The outfit is run by a good friend of mine, his site contains weath of simple free advice on fuel systems as well as a bundle of other useful stuff.
I firmly believe that you can have a decent reliable and SAFE fuel system by just thinking things though and not resorting to additives.
Think about it no engine has ever failed due to too much fuel filteration. And when considering the cost factor in a new set of Denso injector tips, Bosch let you off lightly.
The outfit is run by a good friend of mine, his site contains weath of simple free advice on fuel systems as well as a bundle of other useful stuff.
I firmly believe that you can have a decent reliable and SAFE fuel system by just thinking things though and not resorting to additives.
Think about it no engine has ever failed due to too much fuel filteration. And when considering the cost factor in a new set of Denso injector tips, Bosch let you off lightly.
misterg
Well-Known Member
Except.....
When I buy "Red Diesel" from a local supplier (not the marina) the invoice says "Gas Oil" and it is *much* smokier and smellier than road diesel. I don't believe it will have any harmful effects on injectors (and maybe it'll even be better for the injector pump), but it sure does make soot more easily. This same 'red diesel' is used in vast quantities by local plant operators.
I'm sure that some people are actually getting 'Gas Oil' when they refer to 'Red Diesel' - not that there's anything wrong with it, but it is different to "road" diesel dyed red.
0.02p
Andy
drawkins
Well-Known Member
Just to throw a little pebble in the pond.Anyone who thinks white diesel as opposed to the [duty free !] red is superior in Ireland had better be aware that the colour is removed by an acid application which probaly will cause real problems with your engine.
this is the popular myth which I now await to be shot down in flames
A process by by the criminal elements not the oil companies
this is the popular myth which I now await to be shot down in flames
A process by by the criminal elements not the oil companies
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Heckler
Well-Known Member
If you are talking about the diesel that is sold cheap around the border area, they use barite (diatomaceous earth) to filter the red or green dye out. Acid wouldnt do a thing to it.
Stu
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Gas oil is GOOD!
No such thing as just red ALL off road diesel is gas oil, plan an simple that what it is for christ sakes! ASTM #2 for Gas Oil (diesel) Why is concept of gas oil so alien!!
I have just sold my last ex British Army genny. I purchased a bunch of Yanmar engined gennys a while back which British Army put into villages in Kosovo. All ran for well over 10,000 hours on FILTHY 5,000 PPM Sulphur diesel (Gas oil) with zero problems. Some of the gennys came back with long run tanks full to the brim with Russian dirty GAS OIL, should not have been shipped but they were. Before being sold I drained off the fuel for testing engines on my dyno, it was over five years old.
Started testing rebuilt Cummins K19's out of decomissioned fishing boats before re-export. Contract required 250 Hr extended test on random engine so I put a tonne or so of the Russian stuff though the fuel polisher and fed it to them. Motor said 'luvly jubbly' pulled 100% of test curve and had a real Cummins crackle, on properly filtered five year old 5,000 PPM Sulphur I.E. real dirty GAS OIL.
What do our farmers use 365 days of the year GAS OIL.
Railways run on GAS OIL.
Quarries run on GAS OIL
Fishermen run on GAS OIL
Etc Etc
Engines tested and developed by manufacturers with GAS OIL to ensure that they certify with test fuel.
Who has problems with GAS OIL..............Private pleasure vessels because the have inadequate filteration systems.
Trust me it is the same class of vessel (PRIVATE PLEASURE VESSELS) which will be up to their necks in do do when they get the new EC 2009 stuff.
As to bulk supplied I purchase I can have a fuel specification on request from the supplier whenever I take a delivery of red (Gas Oil). Specification faxed though at time of delivery if I require it.
Just keep this on file for future reference 'old diesel (Gas Oil) good, new stuff (EC2009) zero sulphur and organic content (Gas Oil) bad.
misterg
Well-Known Member
I never said it wasn't ??It is my understanding that Low Sulphur Gas Oil (City Gas Oil) is also sold as "red diesel" which meets BS EN 590 and has the same specification as road diesel.
I am therefore wary that when people talk about "red diesel" they may be talking about two different fuels.
Andy
(Oh, by the way - you are Nigel Luther, and I claim my £5
)Heckler
Well-Known Member
Hiya Niggly!
Stu
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
In English please?
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
It is my understanding that Low Sulphur Gas Oil (City Gas Oil) is also sold as "red diesel" which meets BS EN 590 and has the same specification as road diesel.
I am therefore wary that when people talk about "red diesel" they may be talking about two different fuels.
Andy
Correct!
Was referred to as Green Red diesel when it first came into use back around 1997/98. BAA(British Airports Authority mandated its use on all vehicles operating with confines of airports owned by them.
I think is was simply 50PPM sulphur or EN590 stuff with red dye which was mandated by UK Government one year ahead of European implementation .
I believe I still have my file marked “Investigation into use of Green Red diesel and fuel pump failures in Pink Elephant Parking vehicles”. Bizarre or what!
Because Tony Blair wanted to score points off Europeans we went from 500PPM road fuel down to 50PP. Refineries were caught wrong footed by politicians and reduction in sulphur caused BIG lubricity problems with certain rotary fuel pumps fitted to some LDA(Light Duty Automotive) engines. Warranty claims were being tossed out wholesale because the Green/Red diesel did not meet ASTM#2 standard.
Oil companies did do a heap of work on lubricity additives to offset the loss of Sulphur. However the new lower sulphur fuel had another nasty habit, it tends to attract water like a magnet. Refueller could help here, but I was informed that part of the Sulphur removal process involved passing superheated steam though the distillate during refining resulting in the fuel developing more of an appetite to absorb water than good old 500PPM diesel. Truck and bus operators also reported increase in fuel consumption, reported at between 1 and 2%.
Industry was in turmoil for nearly two years. For example Bosch took a very hard line on warranty whilst at the same time worked flat out on a revised design of seals for the VE pump known as LFP(Light Fuel Pack). Some bus companies faced thousands of pounds in repair costs and cost of vehicles off the road.
From a technical standpoint do I like low sulphur fuel, no not really just a necessary evil on the road to lower diesel engine emissions.
When we talk of dirty diesel I think people are thinking in literal sense, dirty refers to sulphur content, Russian Red diesel (Gas Oil) can be as high as 5000PPM sulphur and diesel engines tend revel in it.
Now we are implementing Tier III Off Road Engine Standards we need to move to virtually sulphur free fuels for off road engines, in other words EU Directive 2009/30/EC. The directive also introduces another wild card which is the addition of an increasing bio-diesel element into non road diesel (Gas Oil).
Do I anticipate problems? Yep I sure do, fuel with poor basic lubricity before addition of additives, has a greater propensity to absorb water, with organic content which the bug will love as a breeding ground.
Most boat owners fuel management sucks already evidenced by all the part full tanks in a marina. Boat builders as a group are clueless when it comes to well designed fuel systems, costs them money but does not sell boats, whereas a fancy veneer does. Likes of Grand Banks and Nordhaven appear alone at being able to sell boats with properly engineered fuel systems.
Was I grumpy last night yes I sure was, boaters in the US paranoid about being forced to abandon their 500PPM fuel and over reacting over introduction of ULSD, actually virtually sulphur free diesel similar to ours, and you guys appear to be begging for the junk, Nowt as queer as folks.
Simple answer again to the original simple question about injector damage. Good old properly filtered/managed 500PPM Red Diesel/Gas Oil call it what you like works like a dream in Yanmar 4JH, traces of water take the tips straight out. Rememember Ex Kosavo British Army gennies which have done over 10,000 hours on 5,000 PPM fuel with zero issues.
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