mm1
Well-Known Member
Worth every penny! It looks like a work of art and good enough to hang on the drawing room wall in the winter. And IF Pants recommend it, then what more can I say! ?
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
That's the reason I changed to a Delta in the first place. For some reason, Italian boat builders favour fitting Bruce anchors as standard on their boats which IMHO are not well suited to Med boating because they just don't penetrate well into weedy bottoms. The Delta certainly outperforms the Bruce in this respect. Whether a roll bar anchor like the Rocna is beeter again, I don't know
Monique
Well-Known Member
I just bought a 45 KG Ultra for my 53 foot raggie... It was not a 60 kg unit but it was NOT anywhere near the price discussed by Deleted User...
You can get better pricing!
You can get better pricing!
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Don't be shy, Monique, tell us where you can get better pricing! I'm looking right now at the Ultra pricelist and the cost of a 45kg model is €3050 and the cost of the 60kg model is €4429 (not €4300 as I said originally). I was offered a 10% discount at the show but if it's possible to do better, I'd like to know
noelex
Well-Known Member
I agree larger anchors do manage better in weed. The weed roots do not change in size when a larger, or smaller boat drops it's anchor. A heavier anchor that may be fitted to a larger boat can manage better than a small anchor of the same design on a small boat,
However, a 56 foot cruising cat (it was a Lagoon) is not a small yacht. I could not read the size of the anchor as it was covered in ball of weed, but it was large anchor, commensurate with the size of a large cruising catamaran. It was much larger than 20 kg.
I don't agree scale factors can explain the failure of the anchor on this occasion. The anchor was large. The weed was only light and the anchor should have managed better. However, I did not see the drop, and setting procedure, only the underwater result. The setting procedure becomes more critical in weed.
I was disappointed with the result, but this is only one example.
There is an article on anchors in the March issue of Sailing Today.
There have been a number of reported cases of roll bar anchors dragging in weed as a result of their developing a ball of seabed between the fluke and roll bar. Similar reports are becoming more frequent from roll bar anchors also clogging in heavy mud and clay. Many people have claimed that the ball of seabed in a roll bar concave anchor, very evident when an anchor is retrieved, is evidence that the anchor has set well. In some case that may be so, to me it simply looks like a clogged anchor that will not reset if tripped and that needs a lot of cleaning with a deck wash. But many need to make an asset from an obvious disadvantage.
The roll bar of an anchor helps it to self right in the same way a weighted toe helps an anchor to self right, once the roll bar has competed that task it then becomes a disadvantage to the anchor setting as it provides resistance to diving into the seabed. The weighted toe helps the anchor to penetrate 'difficult' seabeds - like weed.
Images of anchors on the seabed are very interesting but give no indication of how the anchor was set nor how other anchors are performing in that same seabed. Commonly there is no indication of size. Even if other images are provided of other anchors to support some point or other, the chances of those other anchors being in the same seabed (seabeds vary metre by metre), set the same way and of the same size is not great. These images can be grossly misleading unless a very full and honest explanation is given - beware pretty pictures.
Jonathan
There have been a number of reported cases of roll bar anchors dragging in weed as a result of their developing a ball of seabed between the fluke and roll bar. Similar reports are becoming more frequent from roll bar anchors also clogging in heavy mud and clay. Many people have claimed that the ball of seabed in a roll bar concave anchor, very evident when an anchor is retrieved, is evidence that the anchor has set well. In some case that may be so, to me it simply looks like a clogged anchor that will not reset if tripped and that needs a lot of cleaning with a deck wash. But many need to make an asset from an obvious disadvantage.
The roll bar of an anchor helps it to self right in the same way a weighted toe helps an anchor to self right, once the roll bar has competed that task it then becomes a disadvantage to the anchor setting as it provides resistance to diving into the seabed. The weighted toe helps the anchor to penetrate 'difficult' seabeds - like weed.
Images of anchors on the seabed are very interesting but give no indication of how the anchor was set nor how other anchors are performing in that same seabed. Commonly there is no indication of size. Even if other images are provided of other anchors to support some point or other, the chances of those other anchors being in the same seabed (seabeds vary metre by metre), set the same way and of the same size is not great. These images can be grossly misleading unless a very full and honest explanation is given - beware pretty pictures.
Jonathan
jfm
Well-Known Member
Yup all well said imho, noelex and J Neeves. We are violently agreeing that there is some art rather than science, or at least that the true science can be obscured by J's pretty picture effect where the actual facts are not known
It's just my personal view Deleted User, but you are wasting your money getting rid of a 60kg delta on a 65 foot motorboat. That's a good anchor. To state the obvious you want a scope of 6x or 7x in most med anchorages, and perhaps 10x at night, and a drag alarm at your bedside, but you are on top of all that so I do not want to get into egg sucking. On scope, my point is that folks should ignore all the RYA dayskipper 3x nonsense. I hope/guess you have 12mm chain not 10mm. But keep the Delta; the Delta is innocent!
It's just my personal view Deleted User, but you are wasting your money getting rid of a 60kg delta on a 65 foot motorboat. That's a good anchor. To state the obvious you want a scope of 6x or 7x in most med anchorages, and perhaps 10x at night, and a drag alarm at your bedside, but you are on top of all that so I do not want to get into egg sucking. On scope, my point is that folks should ignore all the RYA dayskipper 3x nonsense. I hope/guess you have 12mm chain not 10mm. But keep the Delta; the Delta is innocent!
Its a very personal decision over buying an Ultra, many do buy (and I have not heard of any unhappy owners- but I am sure there are some). I cannot argue with their incredible beauty - but that stunning look would look totally out of place on the bow of some yachts but be totally in keeping on others. There might be a slight technical advantage of stainless, it does not carry mud so easily and it might set more quickly (because its smooth) - but I doubt realistically, of the latter, anyone can tell the difference. I actually do not believe anyone can tell the difference between a Spade and an Ultra (except in thin mud and maybe very soft sand). But in many seabeds, particularly sand, I do not think you can tell the difference between, for example, a Supreme and a Spade either. Most modern anchors work well and they work equally well in many seabeds - its the 'peripheral' area where differences become apparent - and anchor makers and their supporters tend not to be very open when it comes to seabeds where their product might be questionable.
Really the choice of the Utra is contingent on you liking the visual impact of it on your bow roller.
I too would not dump the Delta, you should have a full sized spare anchor anyway and though if starting from scratch you might focus on a 'new' design (for a spare) given you have something that is perfectly adequate - I'd hang on to it.
The RNLI have used Delta's for decades but if you look at the new Shannon Class vessels you will find them all equipped with Spades. Look at any image showing the bow of the new Class and you will pick out the yellow of the top surface of the fluke and the characteristic curve of the shank, I think they are bolted to the deck in a cradle slightly to starboard on the foredeck. The Ultra appears to be a development of the Spade - but only in stainless.
I would agree, forget a 3:1 scope - think 5:1 as a minimum (unless you are only stopping for an hour or so) again unless there is a very restricted space (and then I'd try and look elsewhere).
Jonathan
Really the choice of the Utra is contingent on you liking the visual impact of it on your bow roller.
I too would not dump the Delta, you should have a full sized spare anchor anyway and though if starting from scratch you might focus on a 'new' design (for a spare) given you have something that is perfectly adequate - I'd hang on to it.
The RNLI have used Delta's for decades but if you look at the new Shannon Class vessels you will find them all equipped with Spades. Look at any image showing the bow of the new Class and you will pick out the yellow of the top surface of the fluke and the characteristic curve of the shank, I think they are bolted to the deck in a cradle slightly to starboard on the foredeck. The Ultra appears to be a development of the Spade - but only in stainless.
I would agree, forget a 3:1 scope - think 5:1 as a minimum (unless you are only stopping for an hour or so) again unless there is a very restricted space (and then I'd try and look elsewhere).
Jonathan
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Likewise thanks to jfm, noelex and J Neeves for the informative discussion. Jfm, you are of course right, ditching the 60kg Delta would probably be a waste of money and yes, I do have 12mm chain as well. As for the scope of the chain, that's an interesting one. Typically I'll tend to use 3x to 4x for a lunchtime stop and maybe 5x for an overnight stop, unless strong winds are forecast in which case I will use more but that's rare, so its interesting to hear that you use more than that. I'm always conscious of the need to restrict the swing of the boat with our yottie friends about. The only time I'll put a lot more chain out is if we're moored stern to against a dock or, as in Croatia, anchored close to the shore with lines ashore, as then of course the consequences of dragging can very quickly become terminal.
What kind of drag alarm are you using at present?
MapisM
Well-Known Member
On the scope subject, while I can't remember to have ever gone as far as 10x, I always go well above 5x for overnighting, whenever feasible.
And btw (without pretending that there's any science behind this habit!), the shallower the anchorage, the higher the scope I tend to go for.
In fact, in my experience, dragging with 100m of chain deployed in a 20m bottom is MUCH more unlikely than dragging with 20m of chain in a 4m bottom.
I know I might be flamed, because the geometry is the same, etc. etc., but that's what worked for me so far.
Oh, and I'm not even entering in the anchor shape debate.
The couple of 50kg pig iron things I've got on my boat could be more aptly called ballast rather than anchors, but they always did their job.
So, I'll just put it this way: I can think of several better (for me anyway) alternatives for spending 4k+ Eur...
And btw (without pretending that there's any science behind this habit!), the shallower the anchorage, the higher the scope I tend to go for.
In fact, in my experience, dragging with 100m of chain deployed in a 20m bottom is MUCH more unlikely than dragging with 20m of chain in a 4m bottom.
I know I might be flamed, because the geometry is the same, etc. etc., but that's what worked for me so far.
Oh, and I'm not even entering in the anchor shape debate.
The couple of 50kg pig iron things I've got on my boat could be more aptly called ballast rather than anchors, but they always did their job.
So, I'll just put it this way: I can think of several better (for me anyway) alternatives for spending 4k+ Eur...
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Well I think there is science behind the habit as I'm one of those people who thinks that the chain does some of the work as well as the anchor! It takes less force to drag 16m of chain along the seabed than to drag 80m of chain (yes I know it will be less than these figures) and the catenary effect of the longer chain is much greater. However shallow the depth, I never put out less than 25m of chain minimum because of that
jfm
Well-Known Member
I agree with MapisM on the science of 100/20 and 20/4. On reflection, scope is such a wide debate I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned it - eg I agree 3x scope might be fine for a lunch stop in light wind.
MapisM, as regards 10x scope, when I anchor in 5m in sand on the lee shore @ Saleccia beach (one of my favourite places on the planet!) I always put 50m of chain down or sometimes 70m. Just for a bit of extra security. There is loads of room so swinging is not a problem. So, on reflection, this whole scope discussion is perhaps "horses for courses", or "scopes for specific situations". Like Deleted User I never put <25m down even in very shallow 3m anchorages.
As regards the science of catenary effect, once you have enough chain down so that - in whatever wind/wave pull you are going to suffer - you do not reach the inflection point where the catenary curve ceases to be complete, there is no further catenary effect created by adding more chain. That is perhaps the only point of pure maths/science in this whole topic. Adding more chain merely gives you the seabed drag of the extra chain, not any catenary effect benefit
BTW, 12mm chain weighs 3.8kg/metre So my 70m of 12mm chain off saleccia beach weighs 250kg. I guess there is some extra drag in the perhaps 30m of excess (non catenary) element of that chain, but it is not a huge amount because the pressure (as opposed to weight) of the chain on the seabed isn't large and obviously chain is not shaped to dig in like an anchor of course. One of these days it would be interesting to measure it with a strain gauge
jrudge
Well-Known Member
Interesting ....
So I was taught the 3 - 4 times scope, with 4 being about the max I use.
I will now re consider..... but the key snag in sunny Mallorca is that the majority of the time any more than 3-4 times will result in a swing very different to everyone else.
As above it is "horses for courses" but if you are in a nice free space and put out lots of chain then sods law says someone will come and park next door. I do so hate glaring at people who do that ... but equally i don't want to drag the anchor either!
There should be an international signal for "i have lots of chain out, so sod off" ... well there probably is one!
So I was taught the 3 - 4 times scope, with 4 being about the max I use.
I will now re consider..... but the key snag in sunny Mallorca is that the majority of the time any more than 3-4 times will result in a swing very different to everyone else.
As above it is "horses for courses" but if you are in a nice free space and put out lots of chain then sods law says someone will come and park next door. I do so hate glaring at people who do that ... but equally i don't want to drag the anchor either!
There should be an international signal for "i have lots of chain out, so sod off" ... well there probably is one!
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
There is! You ostentatiously put out a large fender on your aft quarter whilst at the same time glaring at your new neighbour. Most of the time it works
Monique
Well-Known Member
Because of the sensitive nature of my post, I will send you a PM. All will be revealed!!
