Is the secondhand boat market ever likely to rise again?

Generally people pay for pleasurable things (and get paid to work). Don't understand why some don't think this applies to boats..
 
Unless there is real competition between marinas for our custom then the mooring costs of our craft deters many would be entrants to the ownership world. This will not change unless the RSPB are persuaded that a marina is ecologically a good thing in an estuary, and I cannot see that happening until pigs fly too.
 
Resolution said:
We would have bitten our manufacturer's arm off for 20% gross.
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Yes, it is still nowhere near that amount and if you look at the most successful brands they are all sold by multi activity companies. You cannot live by just selling new boats and the part exchange model now dominates sales so dealers need to have a broad base to both finance stock boats and generate the used boat transactions.

Last year was a good one for many dealers because of the drop in the value of the Euro that was not reflected in a change in list prices in £ sterling. However when I bought my boat in mid 2015 part of that extra margin was shared with me in the final price I paid.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Seriously? You mean you have no salary costs, no office costs, rent, rates, telephones, insurance, vehicles, pension, NI etc etc etc
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The margin depends on the distribution model used and the trade now uses the same sort of incentive schemes as car manufacturers, so arriving at a typical margin is very difficult. As I suggested above dealers spread their risk by being multi activity businesses. Being able to offer part exchange is a big advantage these days given the stickiness of the used boat market - but of course big risk. My old boat went on the dealer's books last July but only sold at the beginning of February.
 
That model is an interesting development - I wonder what the true gross margin is on a Bav34? What does it leave the factory gate at for the dealer? pvb says that there's now a grey market for new boats bought by intermediary 'dealers', so maybe legit dealers have to buy x a month or they miss their bonuses? Sounds like a recipe for all sorts of problems.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Seriously? You mean you have no salary costs, no office costs, rent, rates, telephones, insurance, vehicles, pension, NI etc etc etc
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This is all past history for me, but in those days all the operating costs that you mention had to be absorbed out of our sub twenty percent gross margin. Net margins were wafer thin (or negative). And when the manufacturer decided to play tough on warranties we had very little spare margin with which to keep the customers happy.
Not a good business plan, which is why I sadly sold up and got out.
 
Colvic Watson said:
That model is an interesting development - I wonder what the true gross margin is on a Bav34? What does it leave the factory gate at for the dealer? pvb says that there's now a grey market for new boats bought by intermediary 'dealers', so maybe legit dealers have to buy x a month or they miss their bonuses? Sounds like a recipe for all sorts of problems.
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When I was looking to buy my Bavaria 37, I got hold of the official Bavaria ex-works price list (in euros) and also a price list in pounds produced by Clipper Marine. Both price lists had details of all the many options and upgrades. The Clipper prices differed quite a bit in some cases from the Bavaria prices, allowing a certain amount of extra "padding" which they could probably use to offer "discounts".
 
Colvic Watson said:
That model is an interesting development - I wonder what the true gross margin is on a Bav34? What does it leave the factory gate at for the dealer? pvb says that there's now a grey market for new boats bought by intermediary 'dealers', so maybe legit dealers have to buy x a month or they miss their bonuses? Sounds like a recipe for all sorts of problems.
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Unlike pvb I found the 2015 Clipper Marine price list more directly related to the Euro list (unlike the 2014 list which he kindly sent me) but converted at roughly 1.22 euros to the £. While I was negotiating my deal the rate was hovering around 1.35 and on the day I paid the final instalment it was 1.37. However, Clipper would have bought a forward on the day the contract was signed so that they were certain about the sterling amount due. Complicated by a significant portion of the payment from me being in the form of my old boat.

You need to have your wits about you, both the buyer (me) and the seller (Clipper) as such deals are quite complex, juggling with the "extras" list, non factory fit items, currency risks and part exchange. From my point of view the key figure was the "price to change" - that is the cash amount I had to pay to get a new boat. In many ways it was made easier as almost all the kit was factory fit and the only significant things i had done in the UK was the Coppercoat and extra canvas work where i dealt with the suppliers direct.

I have to say that the whole thing went very well and the boat is exactly what I wanted. Incidentally had much the same experience buying the last one in 2001 except that was with the Greek dealer and the deal was denominated in Marks! 25 years of teaching international finance at university has been a help in such deals!

BTW not sure there is much of a grey market as manufacturers try to keep control over their dealers and are better at enforcing common basic pricing - but of course the currency issue can throw things out for sterling denominated deals.
 
Resolution said:
1. Change in habit from boat owning to boat using. As said above, why own when you can charter?
...

About the only thing which still favours ownership is the intangible factor which we used to call "pride of ownership", and which used to be incredibly strong.

.
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Wouldn't entirely agree with that - having started sailing comparatively late (mid-30's) I'm now 10 yrs on and seriously considering buying - having a look at a few yachts in the 32-35ft category this weekend. There is a sense of wanting the 'pride of ownership' but there's also the cost of chartering on a regular basis with nothing to show for it at the end, along with the fact that sailing is more than popping up a few sails, knowing your nav and colregs and ensuring a fridge full of beer at the end of the day. I'm keenly aware that my knowledge of boat maintenance, electrics and just generally being in-tune with a boat is lacking and what better way than to get something that enables me to learn, get advice from old sea dogs, make a few mistakes (hopefully nothing terminal) and keep improving. Not to mention the improvement in boat handling, awareness and general seamanship that will come from more regularly heading out to sea, prompted by the fact I don't want a purchase to be sitting on a mooring doing nothing. There's also the potential for plenty of increased social interaction with friends who like sailing.

I've been very grateful to have had the opportunity to crew on friends boats and through sites such as crewseekers - the chance to be with different skippers, different boats all with different ways of doing things has been invaluable. But I'm now feeling the call to put things into practise myself and get out there. Hopefully, with something smart, seaworthy and affordable!
 
saccharin said:
I think it will rise again
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I disagree: the number of buyers of smaller and older boats (MABs as referred to on these forums) is steadily falling, as their owners trade up, often to AWBs. When I and many like me came into sailing about 50 years ago we started in dinghies: a Trident 24 or Achilles 24 would have been a desirable mid-sized cruising boat, and a Nic 32 a boat only for seriously well off people. Now a Nic 32 can typically be bought for £15-25K, whereas a new Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria of similar length will cost maybe £100K or more.

In the past most buyers started small - going through dinghies, then 'pocket cruisers' such as Silhouettes etc, then moving on to bigger ones like Centaurs or Folkboats, and only then went up to 30+ feet.

Now it seems very different - we at http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/ reckon that maybe only 25% of the buyers have gone through this evolution: most now start sailing on a sailing school or flotilla charter boat of 35-40 feet, and that when they come to buy their own they look immediately at 30-32 ft or more, wanting standing headroom, hot water and decent double berths. These buyers - now the definite majority - will never buy an older boat design.

The easiest boat to sell now is a modern design in really good order - not necessarily that new but in smart cosmetic and "everything works" condition. It has become a bit more like the car market where there is significant depreciation as soon as a new car goes on the road, but a one or two year old one still looks good and works perfectly at a lot less £££.
 
jwilson said:
I disagree: the number of buyers of smaller and older boats (MABs as referred to on these forums) is steadily falling, as their owners trade up, often to AWBs. When I and many like me came into sailing about 50 years ago we started in dinghies: a Trident 24 or Achilles 24 would have been a desirable mid-sized cruising boat, and a Nic 32 a boat only for seriously well off people. Now a Nic 32 can typically be bought for £15-25K, whereas a new Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria of similar length will cost maybe £100K or more.

In the past most buyers started small - going through dinghies, then 'pocket cruisers' such as Silhouettes etc, then moving on to bigger ones like Centaurs or Folkboats, and only then went up to 30+ feet.

Now it seems very different - we at http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/ reckon that maybe only 25% of the buyers have gone through this evolution: most now start sailing on a sailing school or flotilla charter boat of 35-40 feet, and that when they come to buy their own they look immediately at 30-32 ft or more, wanting standing headroom, hot water and decent double berths. These buyers - now the definite majority - will never buy an older boat design.

The easiest boat to sell now is a modern design in really good order - not necessarily that new but in smart cosmetic and "everything works" condition. It has become a bit more like the car market where there is significant depreciation as soon as a new car goes on the road, but a one or two year old one still looks good and works perfectly at a lot less £££.
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+1 to all of that. Almost exactly my own sailing history . When I was young the sight of a Nicholson 32 had my parents drooling.
 
kayenox said:
Wouldn't entirely agree with that - having started sailing comparatively late (mid-30's) I'm now 10 yrs on and seriously considering buying - having a look at a few yachts in the 32-35ft category this weekend. There is a sense of wanting the 'pride of ownership' but there's also the cost of chartering on a regular basis with nothing to show for it at the end, along with the fact that sailing is more than popping up a few sails, knowing your nav and colregs and ensuring a fridge full of beer at the end of the day. I'm keenly aware that my knowledge of boat maintenance, electrics and just generally being in-tune with a boat is lacking and what better way than to get something that enables me to learn, get advice from old sea dogs, make a few mistakes (hopefully nothing terminal) and keep improving. Not to mention the improvement in boat handling, awareness and general seamanship that will come from more regularly heading out to sea, prompted by the fact I don't want a purchase to be sitting on a mooring doing nothing. There's also the potential for plenty of increased social interaction with friends who like sailing.

I've been very grateful to have had the opportunity to crew on friends boats and through sites such as crewseekers - the chance to be with different skippers, different boats all with different ways of doing things has been invaluable. But I'm now feeling the call to put things into practise myself and get out there. Hopefully, with something smart, seaworthy and affordable!
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We didn't use "pride of ownership" in a derogatory manner, far from it. It was meant to sum up the positive enjoyment that so many of us have in owning and operating a decent bit of kit to the best of our skills and ability.
Actually, you have listed many of the right factors in being a good owner. Sounds like you are hooked on sailing, as are many on this forum - Good on you! Go for it!:encouragement:
 
Mmmm, Personally I would still class spending 15-20k on a hobby, as the province of the seriously well off!
Especially as thats just the start of it.
I also think you are talking about entirely different markets.
I would charter, but it would be a holiday, to enjoy with my partner, some friends, the kids. It could just as easily be a canal boat.
Thats not sailing for me. Sailing is having your own boat, and taking it places, exploring. I dont care if it's a mab or whatever, its a tool to go adventuring with. Owning your own boat is important, otherwise you have no freedom.
And above all else, sailing and a boat is surely about freedom?
 
steve yates said:
Mmmm, Personally I would still class spending 15-20k on a hobby, as the province of the seriously well off!
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Clearly many people disagree with that - and they would not consider themselves "seriously well off". Problem is that many only get in the position where they can spend larger amounts in their later years.

If you can, starting young, have your children early, educate them well and keep the same wife and own your own house and lots of things are possible. Appreciate that not everybody can make these sorts of choices.
 
Gladys said:
Interesting that people are focussing on the vessels, not the buyers. The 30 somethings in many cases have yet to buy a property let alone a boat, and that is the major issue. Until / if we get back to a more sensible property market, buyers will be rare
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I'm in this situation, early 30's, renting and just started a family after putting it off for a number of years to try and get on the property ladder. My wife and I are happy renting as what we could afford to buy just seems to be getting further and further from reach each time we look and smaller and smaller. We very nearly spent our deposit money on a boat (10k) last year however when we totted up the running costs etc we just couldn't afford it. It looks like we'll get a £250 dinghy and join a local club in a year or two. I'm hoping we may be able to buy a sub 1k (Corribee etc) and keep it in a boat yard and just trailer launch 3-4 times a year however this isn't really affordable at the moment either (I have £20 a week left over after paying our core bills).

In reality we've come to realise (even though it's not nice) we'll never own our own house until our folks croak and leave us some inheritance, a boat that has to stay on the water is totally out of the question. (Despite them being more affordable the ever)
 
Folkboat Tom, don't despair. I was in my early thirties when I bought a half share in my first yacht, which was a Folkboat! With no money saved up, we struck a deferred payment deal with the seller, I gave up beer and my wife halved her cigarette consumption. At weekends we dropped out of all the money-spending things which young couples usually do in a big city like restaurant meals, cinema etc, and enjoyed free time on the boat. Didn't take too long before the debt was paid off and the boat was ours. Took much longer to learn to sail!
 
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