Is leisure boating in terminal decline?

Yes the industry is obscenely over priced in most things and this scares new people away from boating.. Also as oldgit says there is very little to choose from in the lower end with all the big manufacturers abandoning smaller boats and chasing the higher profit margin "yacht" buyers.. It does mean that other builders can come into the market but the new boat prices are unaffordable for the market they are trying to address..

Mooring costs I think are a real barrier of entry.. For what you get the costs are ridiculous, certainly on the south coast, and anywhere that has cheaper prices usually have crazy waiting lists forcing people who want to take up the hobby to pay the high prices or abandon the hobby.. Even a trailered boat is not that simple, slipway fees are high for what they are and things like £500 per year in road tax for a car big enough to pull a family size Cuddy Cruiser again make it a harder decision for the families with lower disposable income..

The only way I was able to do it was to have a boat share with my Dad who also enjoys the water.. When he retires I probably won't be able to stay at the level we are at now because it's just too expensive for me alone..

In saying that there is always a way to get on he water in any budget.. Could be a few hundred on a canoe to however many million you want to spend.. I met a young family last year that simply had a 3M roll-up inflatable (like most would use as a tender) and a small outboard.. They would just take it to the shore of Poole Harbour somewhere, blow it up and off they would go.. I thought that was fantastic and means their young child is getting to enjoy the water rather than the sofa with an xbox/playstation..
 
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We are on our 4th boat since 2010, the Broom we have now was a great choice. The comments about the long recession and subsequent recovery time are correct, for what it is worth I gave up drinking three years ago, it had nothing to do with money, there are sports I want to be good at, and at my age the booze had to stop, good riddance to it I don't miss it at all, when I hear people say " I need a glass of wine" now it just makes me laugh, coz they don't
 
Sure I read somewhere there are more narrowboats in the UK than there have ever been.
Perhaps the type of boat which sips fuel is more popular and those which consume more are less so.

I also agree with the thought that boating is not necessarily expensive providing the best use is made of the boat. I think I would spend as much on holidays and weekends away if we didn't have a boat.
 
My cost (on Ocqueteau 975) is £2.5k all incl. before turning the keys (mooring, 2xlift, insurance, tax (!), planned maintenance, antifoul etc).

I'm on the boat daily, use it as 'summer house', work-from-home, weekends and holidays - all provided weather permits. Enjoy owning and working around it, keeping it mint.
Cost is definitely justified by my book. Great value - and quality of life.

Don't know what the value at sale sometime in the future would be and actually do not care too much until it happens. No loss on any of previous 6 boats (small gain, actually).
 
If I can put in my two penn'orth from a sailing perspective. It has never been cheaper to get on the water. I did a bit of research for my sailing club and looked at small boats, about 22ft on eBay. The last ten that sold and were described as in good, sailable condition, went for an average of £1200. You can get an East Coast drying mooring for less than £500 p.a. The paradox is that our club drying moorings are nearly empty, no one wants them.
Yes, the recession has had an impact but I believe that it is the higher standard of living that we enjoy now means that people are not prepared to put up with the living conditions in a typical small boat built forty years ago. The world has changed in that time and as a comparison, just look at how caravans have developed, even the cheapest new van has central heating, hot and cold running water, fridge, three burner cooker with oven, microwave, TV, full sized loo etc.
So, yes, the market is changing and it will be different in the future but I don't think it is in terminal decline, just reducing to a level commensurate with modern times.
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
Why is it even a question, though? Either you like going boating, or you don't. Does it really matter if it is 'in terminal decline'? Why are you concerned? (Seriously - why _are_ you concerned? This question gets posed from time to time, and I never really understand why it's important. Interested to know the answer).
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I look at it this way, Jimmy. If it is true that leisure boating, in particular motorboating, is on the decline then that effects all of us because it means there are fewer buyers in the market and that means lower prices. New boat buyers have always had to accept a big whack of depreciation but these days so do secondhand boat buyers. Long gone are the days when you could pretty much buy any used boat and sell it a couple of years later for what you bought it for. For me and I suspect most boaters, boating is a cost/benefit exercise in that once the cost of boating exceeds the pleasure people get out of boating, they're going to walk away from it. I know that fuel is relatively cheap at the moment but throw in the fact that the cost of fuel over the long term is inexorably rising and the fact that for some people, burning fuel at the rate a gallon a mile is socially and environmentally unacceptable and then you've got some good reasons why motorboating in particular may well be in decline. Thats not good for us and not good for the thousands of people employed in the industry either
 
Brightside said:
Controversial and pessimistic perhaps, but with second hand boat prices still well down from where they were and showing no signs seemingly of recovery, leisure boaters ageing and it appears fewer younger boaters coming "on board" do you share my concerns? With house prices where they are, the later patter of tiny feet are those of us now boating a dying breed?
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When I was first looking for a boat early 2000s, SIBs bav bene jeaneau deals on, £80k ish for a 36 ft. Now look at the price, Dickies the biggest grossing bene dealer then, then sold their yd, reduced to selling from a van in Pwllheli, now taken over by B J marine!
No new boats being sold so no good s/hand ones around. All went to the continent when the euro was good against the pound. Now going the other way thank goodness!
S
 
The fact that boats and everything associated with them are increasingly beyond what most people want to pay, and can pay, means that boating will be in a decline.

The question in my mind is, how can we change it? For example, can we as a group create a viable, low cost alternative for any aspect, whether for mooring in the Solent, having engines serviced more cheaply, etc. Surely, as a group, we have ideas, brains, time and buying power?
 
The UK is part of the European Market and the European Market is, IMHO, still in decline. There are empty Berths in most Marinas except the very best (Richest). Berths for over 20m seem full and under 12m, but 15m berths available most places in Spain. The 1990's saw an explosion in building, lots of Boats around. This was only paired back in 2008/2009. The problem is that for 75% of Europe people are worse off. Less disposable income, less job promotion prospects, no miracle house price boom with equity release. This means they cannot afford to boat except on a smaller scale. For every boat buyer there are about 9/10 boats available. I remember looking for boats back in the early 2000's, I was lucky to find 3/4 of what I wanted.

Is this Terminal, or just a correction. I think a correction and a lot of boats will be scrapped and 'thrown away' Only the best/most popular will survive. Credit is vastly reduced for marine finance for second hand boats in Europe, and the finance that is around seems very expensive. The boats that are selling in South Spain are mostly cash...at cash prices. I cannot see any recovery in Europe soon, so the market will be depressed. Oversupply and old boats need to be taken away which will lead to a more normal Market. The UK has rode out a minor bubble but things are not as rosy as they seem.

Overall it is a tuff time for the Marine Industry, and in that situation the best and most customer service orientated survive. Have Essex decided to focus on second hand boats where they can make more margin for less hassle? This was how they built the business out of a recession, all will be revealed. I live in a place that has boomed since the 2008 crash, yet I see Europe next door in a terrible state. I look at a boat and think what if? Boats are just not Liquid assets anymore, are suffering huge depreciation and running costs (complexity of engines) have increased. I look at the 40-50ft MOBOS which I have always wanted and now can buy one for cash. But what if things change, what are my options, what do I do with a lump of GRP costing me £10k a year even if it does not move. Risk Vs Reward....just too risky.

To be fair I opted for living in a Marina instead so get that great feeling without as much risk. I have a small old speedboat to get me out and on the water that gives me huge fun. I know I am not typical, but in the last 20 years have had over 15 boats, but I would hesitate to buy another at the moment. Maybe my age (42) maybe I just like saving money more than I did...who knows. I dream of big boats, but everything seems too risky.

Will the Market correct itself and rebound? I expect so. Will Europe climb out of this hole, maybe, yes but it could get worse first. The UK is a boating bubble....but even that bubble has reduced in size. If London House prices continue to contract it could set off another contraction IMHO.

N.
 
The upper middle-class has been squeezed in the income competition since the mid-90s, losing out to the top 3-5%. That's an observation supported by statistics. Soon the top 1% income bracket owns more than 50% of all accumulated wealth in Europe and I suspect it has already happened for UK seen in isolation.

The upper middle-class (roughly corresponding to the 2nd highest income decile) traditionally were buyers of boats in the 20-35ft range. At the same time the top 3-5% are doing better and can afford bigger boats. This development fairly well explains why boat builders are moving towards building smaller numbers of bigger hulls. That's simply where the market is and it can - depending on who you are - be seen as a decline, as the number of newcomers to boating naturally drops off.

It's getting slightly political here; but looking around Europe it's clear there is a popular reaction against continued wealth concentration in the brewing, which could - with a delay of 10-20 years - reverse the trend and move the market towards smaller boats and more people participating. Yep, that would be a political reaction targeting you guys currently cruisng around in your relatively new 50+ft motor boats, but at least iy will not be a rerun of the french revolution and it will probably affect your potential successors in the top 3-5% wealth bracket more than it will affect you personally.
 
Terminal Decline?

Have to say I live in the hope your thoughts on this were true, giving more space for those that choose to continue, but I don't think you have it right by the evidence of how crowded my stomping ground is, most weekends you could probably walk from the main land to the IOW without getting your feet wet there's that many craft on the water, plus getting berths in Yarmouth, Beaulieu, Hamble, Lymington,Cowes, Folly,ETC. have become more expensive and harder to get for weekend stop overs, OK not all the time, but hardly a sign of declining numbers. Perhaps the Solent is not your back yard, although it would appear to be a good barometer of NON decline.

This is just a personal view and not spreadsheet proven,so I could be wrong..........................again!;)
 
Hugin said:
The upper middle-class has been squeezed in the income competition since the mid-90s, losing out to the top 3-5%. That's an observation supported by statistics. Soon the top 1% income bracket owns more than 50% of all accumulated wealth in Europe and I suspect it has already happened for UK seen in isolation.
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Taken from a World Bank report dated 2012, Global Income Inequality by the Numbers in History and Now. An Overview. Branko Milanovic.

One way to look at it is to take the whole income of the world and divide it into two halves: the richest 8% will take one-half and the other 92% of the population will take another half. So, it is a 92-8 world. Applying the same type of division to the US income, the numbers are 78 and 22. Or using Germany, the numbers are 71 and 29.

If the top 1% of the UK population already own over 50%, that makes the UK at least 99-1. I don't think that is likely to be true, if it is we are very different from Germany in 2012. If Germany in 2012 was 71-29, it seems unlikely that Europe as a whole has moved to 99-1.
 
kcrane said:
If the top 1% of the UK population already own over 50%, that makes the UK at least 99-1. I don't think that is likely to be true, if it is we are very different from Germany in 2012. If Germany in 2012 was 71-29, it seems unlikely that Europe as a whole has moved to 99-1.
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You are comparing accumulated wealth (i.e. net savings.... often inherited fortunes) to income. The high earners obviously have more potential for saving up than poor people, who generally spend all their income immediately. It is only a few months ago a new report predicted that we would reach the 1% - 99% distribution in Europe sometime within the next few years...... meaning the richest 1% would own 50% of all accumulated wealth while the 99% poorest would share the remaining 50%.

The income splits you mention are also quite scary...... I doubt they are politically sustainable in the long run in a society where the poor have voting rights.
 
Is it that time already? The old "end is nigh" post....

There are ways to go boating on a shoestring. Some of the restoration threads on here are testament to that. If you want to go to the London or Southampton boat show and buy a brand new motor cruiser of any size then it won't be cheap. It never has been and it never will be. All this talk of the top 1% is pure financial origami. Take London property out of the equation and see how the numbers pan out.

Buying new bots has always been a 1% pastime. That's the whole reason people went to London or Southampton, to see how the other half live - ah got ya, thumbs through his notes, "attendance numbers at the shows has been falling year on year since......."

Since the internet came along and when not surfing pornography people can ogle to their hearts content. They can even spin round, look up look down and wander in a virtual reality.

Some businesses have failed - because they weren't very good or didn't embrace the times. The boating world is hardly cutting edge when it comes to pulling their fingers out of their bums and shining a light. There's the odd gem but in the main it's like buying a car in the 1970's or a house in the 1980's.

Of 60 million odd people in the Uk half wouldn't be old enough to buy a new motorboat. Of the ones that are only 1% will be wealthy enough and they are going to change their boat once every 5 years. So that's 60,000 new boats. Best get building then, particularly if you're going to have a few left over for the other countries.

Boating, particularly high end motor boating has always been and will always be a 1% hobby, so numbers relating to your man in the street don't apply.

No, I don't think things are in terminal decline.


Henry :)
 
I,ll put an alternative view on the table ---
Economic arguments are too general for leisure none essential activities -they are fine for -food ,shelter, clothes, heat, light
What you are seeing ( well,iam seeing ) is this --- the x % of potential boat owners are actually demographically moving up wards in terms of size and entry level .
Sucessful builders are riding this wave .As well as this this x % are wealthy enough to locate the boat in suny climates ,with all the additional costs that are associates with that .Additionally they probably own as stated multiple properties -some of which will be for personal use like holiday homes .Boating works out actually a small outgoing in the general scheme of things .
Thay sell up more due to being " time poor "
In the EU in the PIGS -sure they are suffering a lot more than the Uk Germany Switzerland and the Nordic states ,
The French boatbuilders are still churning out little starter boats -AND -rebranding going up market chasing the x % .
Supply of moorings still struggles to meet demand in Cote D Azur .
However in Italy probably the European centre for leisure boat manufactoring - boat building is in decline ( there are many little known brands to the uk ) -due to a poor home market that's dried up -ie no real export market to balance poor home sales .Itama sold 4 boats last year .Aprea mare -delivered 6
I can,t see many Greek families rushing down to Sunseekers in Athens with € 600000 for a starter Portofino 400 .or Prinny V39 -Buts that's not going to worry those two uk based builders .
Summary the demographics of the owners ( home and export ) have changed -so the sucessful builders have followed .
It's not in terminal decline -just shifting .
 
henryf said:
Is it that time already? The old "end is nigh" post....

There are ways to go boating on a shoestring. Some of the restoration threads on here are testament to that. If you want to go to the London or Southampton boat show and buy a brand new motor cruiser of any size then it won't be cheap. It never has been and it never will be. All this talk of the top 1% is pure financial origami. Take London property out of the equation and see how the numbers pan out.
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There was definately a period during the 70 s and 80s when buying a new or virtually new boat was definately within the reach of the slightly better off.
The clusters of ( the then) top end Broom and Fairline 12 metre boats from around that date (many still in original ownership ) in our club is testimony to this.
Most were owners at the time of very small business,s, perhaps engineers or senior management with the odd senior teacher thrown in..
Pretty certain none of them had property interests anywhere other than the semi or flat they may have even been renting.
 
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oldgit said:
There was definately a period during the 70 s and 80s when buying a new or virtually new boat was definately within the reach of the slightly better off.
The clusters of ( the then) top end Broom and Fairline 12 metre boats from around that date (many still in original ownership ) in our club is testimony to this.
Most were owners at the time of very small business,s, perhaps engineers or senior management with the odd senior teacher thrown in..
Pretty certain none of them had property interests anywhere other than the semi or flat they may have even been renting.
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I wonder if that reflects more on your / your circle of friends current circumstances. I can assure you there are people selling businesses, cashing out of property and so on. I think there is more of an inclination to invest in a house these days rather than rent a house and go out and buy a boat. It does happen, it's the same with cars, but generally speaking you would be seen as foolish to go out and but a big boat before sorting out somewhere to live which will also be your pension / nest egg in years to come. We all know boats go down not up in price.

The trend for larger boats definitely plays a part. Everyone knows that values rise very quickly with only a modest increase in size. Even todays entry level 39 or 40 footers would be seen as huge in the 1970's and '80s.

With regards Italy my take on their demise is price. I'm not an expert and have never heard of half the builders but if I was looking for a 30-30 metre boat I bet a Princess or Sunseeker would work out the thick end of half the price of a custom built Italian tub. Even multi-millionaires like good value. If you're happy to limit yourself to the customisation offered by the British you can see why the move larger is paying dividends. And yes, once again someone will come on here and quote balance sheets but as JFM regularly explains both Sunseeker and Princess would appear to be quite healthy in terms of core business.

Henry :)
 
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