Is Greece wincingly expensive now?

[charles_reed]

I must admit I am rather worried by the number of apparent Eurosceptics who seem to wish to see both Greece default and the Euro collapse. The UK will not escape the fallout and may well suffer even more simpy because sterling is a major traded currency and because our banks gambled their bonuses on Euro debt as well as US mortgages. When you see just how sterling has performed against the Euro on international markets it is clear the markets see the UK as just as dodgy as Greece Portugal Ireland etc

Whilst there are a number of flat-earthers, desiring to roll back history to Rule Britannia and the days of Empire we Brits have:-
a) to recognise that we're a small to mid-size country and cannot afford to "punch above our weight"
b) the UK is integrated into Europe and we'd be breaking treaties and our word if we tried to pull out.

However the € scheme was ill-thought through and within a year of it's inception both of it's two largest economies had breached two of the basic rules.

I have to agree that the ever-closer brigade have not got a mandate from theirs or any other voters and any referendum, on their vision, would produce a negative vote in all the countries of the EC.
Greece has spent well beyond its means - in common with Italy they have an insupportably large public payroll, having more to do with social (not socialist) politics than with economic commonsense.
I am in sympathy with the European ideal, but wish more Europoliticians would try sell what they're about, get their snouts out of the Brussel's trough and show some slight competence, instead of trying to trick their voters into a grand federal state.
All this political incompetence and economic incoherence is going to end in considerable suffering for a lot of Greek, Portuguese and Italian men/women in the street

 

[DownWest]

b) the UK is integrated into Europe and we'd be breaking treaties and our word if we tried to pull out.

However the € scheme was ill-thought through and within a year of it's inception both of it's two largest economies had breached two of the basic rules.


That is the heart of the problem, the British public agreed to a trading union. Since then, they have had no say. Camaron promised a referendum, but only if the Lisbon Treaty was not signed before an election. His critics tend to ignore the whole promise. Since the rules have been routinely broken, by many member countries, to keep the dream alive, is the UK bound by the rules on wanting out? (IF)

Letting Greece go without keeping the euro would be the best (tempory?) solution to keep the federal dream alive. But the Brussels mob can't swallow that as it shows them up as bad planners.
One can't say that Greece does not deserve what is happening, but, as usual, the wrong people are going to suffer.
A

 

[Sandyman]

'' b) the UK is integrated into Europe and we'd be breaking treaties and our word if we tried to pull out. ''

No we wouldn't. The pollios never ever had the British peoples mandate to take us into this
Federal nonsense. They know it & they will never ask the people because they know what the answer would be.

 

[charles_reed]

'' b) the UK is integrated into Europe and we'd be breaking treaties and our word if we tried to pull out. ''

No we wouldn't. The pollios never ever had the British peoples mandate to take us into this
Federal nonsense. They know it & they will never ask the people because they know what the answer would be.

Referendums are a very unBritish way of going about things - our Government of the day signed treaties and committed us.
But not to a federal state! or the € (the latter I regretted but, in hindsight, it was better we didn't enter - one of Gordon's good calls).

The point I'm making is that not only the Brits, but the Germans, the French, the Dutch and all the others gave no carte blanche to ever closer union - the Lisbon Treaty, which we signed, is a long way from a blueprint for a federal Europe. It was heavily amended from D'Estaing's original because the latter would have been totally rejected by nearly every European Nation population.
The lack of coherence is being reflected in the appalling, incompetent manner in which the €politicians are playing the scenario.
If there was an impeachment process available their performance would deserve action under it.

Now be careful you don't fall over the edge ;-)

 

[Oliveoyl]

Referendums are a very unBritish way of going about things - our Government of the day signed treaties and committed us.

I seem to remember voting in a stay/leave referendum in the 1970's?

 

[DownWest]

Wasn't that the one if we wanted to be part of a trading partnership? Heath admitted (later) he knew it was going to be about federalism. Just 'forgot' to tell the public. The original planers alway had the fed deal in mind. I am inclined to follow the idea that the planners always knew that there would be a problem with the southern states, and that they could use a 'crisis', in this case Greece, to push through their fiscal integration plan. What they didn't count on was how bad the crisis would be in connection with the world markets.
A

 

[maxi77]

Wasn't that the one if we wanted to be part of a trading partnership? Heath admitted (later) he knew it was going to be about federalism. Just 'forgot' to tell the public. The original planers alway had the fed deal in mind. I am inclined to follow the idea that the planners always knew that there would be a problem with the southern states, and that they could use a 'crisis', in this case Greece, to push through their fiscal integration plan. What they didn't count on was how bad the crisis would be in connection with the world markets.
A

The touble with trading partneships is they do not work, countries that want to fiddle the outcome develop non tarif barriers which often put their so called partners at more of a disavantage than they were before. As that became aparent the single market became inevitable. We really have to make this work or our econnomy will got tits up along with a lot of others. Leaving will put us in a worse position than Greece.

 

[tri39]

Downwest has it right. The euro was always a political currency designed to promote federalism by way of it's inherent contradictions. However the crisis has mushroomed due to the astronomical debt accrued by the periphery. You can argue that the invention of the euro has directly caused the current financial crisis and continuing with it can only make things worse. Really the euro should split in two, north and south, but imagine the arguments, especially about whether France should go with Germany or lead the southern group.
At the end of the day it's hard to believe that the solution to over borrowing is yet more over borrowing!! And yet it looks like that's where the whole shebang is headed. Thank God Brown/Balls stood up to the eurofanatics, it's the only thing we'll ever be able to thank them for.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Downwest has it right. The euro was always a political currency designed to promote federalism by way of it's inherent contradictions. However the crisis has mushroomed due to the astronomical debt accrued by the periphery. You can argue that the invention of the euro has directly caused the current financial crisis and continuing with it can only make things worse. Really the euro should split in two, north and south, but imagine the arguments, especially about whether France should go with Germany or lead the southern group.
At the end of the day it's hard to believe that the solution to over borrowing is yet more over borrowing!! And yet it looks like that's where the whole shebang is headed. Thank God Brown/Balls stood up to the eurofanatics, it's the only thing we'll ever be able to thank them for.

Borrowing more again means inflation. This is now the stealth policy of this government to reduce debt. Heaven help the retired who have no chance of earning it again. We need to march on Parliament to protest. Ok as a generation we havnt done badly on house prices.

 

[grumpygit]

Borrowing more again means inflation. This is now the stealth policy of this government to reduce debt. Heaven help the retired who have no chance of earning it again. We need to march on Parliament to protest. Ok as a generation we havnt done badly on house prices.

Your correct of course, but the politicians along with there cronies don't give a monkeies ass about the rest of us. They have there gold edged pensions that are inflation proof and that's apart from whatever else they plunder along the way.

House prices though are immaterial if you need your house, unless you want to down size. In a lot of cases you can loose that equity if you need to be in full time care in later life.

The only way if conscience allows is to live in debt!

__________________________________________________________________

 

[maxi77]

Thank God Brown/Balls stood up to the eurofanatics, it's the only thing we'll ever be able to thank them for.

If that was standing up to them it really wasn't worth the effort. Brown only kept out of the Euro because he had still enough sense to understand that joining would see him transported to the political wilderness and no hope of being PM. He signed up for everything else. As for Balls all he is good at is internal politics and has no hope in the real world. As it is the only reason we are not in the same position as Greece is that Cameron acted as soon as he was elected and has shown credibility in dealing with our debt problem.