Is Greece wincingly expensive now?

[charles_reed]

that's only 30% of the total - it's the bloated public payroll which is pulling Greece into the mire.
Either they're made redundant or the government won't be able to borrow to pay them.
Meanwhile PASOK (the political face of the public sector) is bleeding the private sector white, despite contrary advice from the IMF, the ECB and nearly all economists.
The only place the political ineptitude of the leaders of the €urozone is exceeded is in Greece itself.

 

[Jegs]

Diesel prices - France

Prices are rising across Europe. Those quoted for Greece, while much more than 30 years ago, are still less than anywhere else.
Diesel in France is about 1.54 euros per litre even at the discount garages.
As an economist (long retired) I expect prices to rise further in Greece as they try to restore fiscal sanity to a resistant population.
They have been living high on the hog for too long now.

Last week I bought diesel from Leclerc @ E1.31.

John G

 

[lefkasman]

Property tax will be included in the electricity bill, the square meters of each property is declared at the time of power connection, this is how an estimated figure is arrived at if the meter is not read.

The property tax will be a variable amount based on the square meters of the property and dependent on individual circumstances also area or region, so that is how the tax will be collected certainly not a complete joke, I wish it were

 

[Chris_Robb]

Property tax will be included in the electricity bill, the square meters of each property is declared at the time of power connection, this is how an estimated figure is arrived at if the meter is not read.

The property tax will be a variable amount based on the square meters of the property and dependent on individual circumstances also area or region, so that is how the tax will be collected certainly not a complete joke, I wish it were

Firstly, how will they deal with rental properties, surely the tenant won't pay.

Then, is all the software in place to collect it. This is not a trivial task, especially modifying legacy software.

 

[Oliveoyl]

The EU want Greece to fire 100000 government employees! This can not be encouraged without civil unrest.

The % of the population "govt employees" is phenomenal compared to the rest of Europe - the prob is that they are underpaid, underqualified and undermotivated (govt policy years ago to reduce unemployment!). How many thousands are "employed" in the VAT admin just to rubberstamp heaps of paper? How few are out in the field tracking down VAT fraud?
Just like Absurdistan 20 years ago. Doh, my head hurts!

 

[grumpygit]

The % of the population "govt employees" is phenomenal compared to the rest of Europe - the prob is that they are underpaid, underqualified and undermotivated (govt policy years ago to reduce unemployment!). How many thousands are "employed" in the VAT admin just to rubberstamp heaps of paper? How few are out in the field tracking down VAT fraud?
Just like Absurdistan 20 years ago. Doh, my head hurts!

Yes I agree, and with much of the comments made by other peeps. The government workers are completely overloading the system, this is a well recognised fact. Like the government building that employed a dozen or so gardeners, the building had no gardens, urban myth? May be, but putting these people out of work will only compound the problems with poverty, debt and much more fuel for unrest.
We that are sailing Greece know how overloaded the system is, look the amount of port police that litter their offices, no computers and everything filled in longhand and rubberstamped.

The Greek Parliament are making tax laws overnight and this is causing a great deal of confusion and annoyance to all as they try to implement their latest bombshell.

Yes, I believe they will default on the repayment big style, they are in a catch 22, beggared if they do, beggared if they don't.

Will it collapse from the Euro? I don't know. If I was a betting man though I would put money on them staying in for now (but I'd only risk one euro), imo the ramifications would be just too great. To the world this would show as a massive failure of the EU and it's single currency dream.
For the record, I am not a supporter of this backdoor nationalism of Europe and it's non elected honcho's. As I have said before.......It's all down to the political will.

We have the feeling as though we should may be move on to pastures new, but being bloody minded we are staying in Greece, till Spring next year for sure. We like Greece and a lot of their people.............. So let's hope we don't live to regret our decision.

___________________________________________________________________

 

[lefkasman]

property tax

Firstly, how will they deal with rental properties, surely the tenant won't pay.

Then, is all the software in place to collect it. This is not a trivial task, especially modifying legacy software.

The tenant agrees with the landlord that the landlord will pay the tax-part.

Next step is that the landlord raises the rent by the amount of paid tax + 20%.

If the tenants want to do anything about it all they can try is to get the landlord to lower the rent with the amount of property tax now included in the DEI bill.
they could even point out to him that doing so he:
a) fulfills his obligation to pay the property tax.
b) lowers his taxable income that he earns by letting the place to begin with and therefore ends up paying less income tax.

Point two...
"Then, is all the software in place to collect it".

I have no idea

 

[charles_reed]

The tenant agrees with the landlord that the landlord will pay the tax-part.

Next step is that the landlord raises the rent by the amount of paid tax + 20%.

If the tenants want to do anything about it all they can try is to get the landlord to lower the rent with the amount of property tax now included in the DEI bill.
they could even point out to him that doing so he:
a) fulfills his obligation to pay the property tax.
b) lowers his taxable income that he earns by letting the place to begin with and therefore ends up paying less income tax.

Point two...
"Then, is all the software in place to collect it".

I have no idea

The electricity company is being used to collect the tax because they're the only people in all Greece who have a record of the m2 of every building.
Most properties in Greece don't have individual meters, but pay an electricity bill based upon m2 of their properties. Rather like our old non-metered water bill.
This tax is based upon the m2 of the property. I've seen one person's bill €12/m2.
And yes the software is standard, an extra line on the electricity bill - no pay - cut off.

 

[lefkasman]

Thanks Charles, next question Mr Robb ?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thanks Charles, next questionr Robb ?

Well folks, i heard today that the Dei was refusing to do it. Rumour or not.? And Charles, one extra line on a bill is not trivial! Also they have the m2 but somebody has to enter the valuation, something else that the soft won't do yet...........

 

[DownWest]

Yikes, at that valuation, my recently increased property tax would go up 6 times here.
Diesel this am was €1.29/lt. It does actuall vary up and down with some link to the crude price. Unlike UK were up is the only way.
A

 

[charles_reed]

Well folks, i heard today that the Dei was refusing to do it. Rumour or not.? And Charles, one extra line on a bill is not trivial! Also they have the m2 but somebody has to enter the valuation, something else that the soft won't do yet...........

It does - no problem, it's only a crude SQL database.

On the other hand, the union response is definitely negative, they're not refusing to send the bills out, but they are refusing to instigate cutting off non-payers.

IMHO it's all a storm in a teacup because the likelihood of Greek default is about 98% and the consequent economic implosion will make such matters irrelevant.

 

[tinkicker0]

Prices in Troulos, Skiathos - mid May 2011

My benchmark prices:

500ml bottled Mythos or Amstel - beachfront taverna Eu2.50

Large (meghala?) Mythos in frosted glass - beachfront taverna Eu 3.00

500ml bottled Mythos - local supermarket - Eu 1.10

Main course in beachfront taverna - beef stifado - Eu 8.00

Main course in off beachfront taverna - beef stifado - Eu 7.00

2ltr bottle pepsi - supermarket - Eu 1.65

250ml bottled Coke in glass - ice and lemon - beachfront bar or taverna - Eu 2.50 - 3.00

 

[DownWest]

payers.

IMHO it's all a storm in a teacup because the likelihood of Greek default is about 98% and the consequent economic implosion will make such matters irrelevant.

News today is that Greece will default (50% haircut) but stay in the system (euro) wonder how they are going to manage that ? Another fudge to keep the federal dream alive. Can't see the markets buying it.

Bit of history: I lived in Portugal from '75 to '05. When I first was there, putting money in the bank got you 18%. Trying to borrow it cost 25% (!) And the exchange rate was around 48esc/£ at the lowest . Later the rate was anything up to 250esc/£. The Portuguese were the biggest savers in europe (mainly because the state pension was not much) Come the euro, with cheap credit, new cars were the norm, instead of pretty old but well looked after ones. Lots of apartment blocks aimed at young families. Soon they became the most indepted in europe, bar the Greeks I assume. So why would any body dream that such an economy was going to speed up to match the northern states? The history of exchange rates gives the game away.Much as Greece needs to devalue to stay viable. £ to French Franc was always (AFAICR) between a bit over 9 to a bit under 11 between the 60s and the euro switch, that seems a managable system.
One little story: Lloyds did a survey when the banking system was opened up to external banks. The found that the Portuguese banks had four times the staff handling a quarter of the work compared to that they themselves managed. That's a factor of 16. But the unions said " While they understood there was need to improve, there must be a guarentee that there would be no staff losses" Greece appears to be even more intrenched.
A

 

[maxi77]

I must admit I am rather worried by the number of apparent Eurosceptics who seem to wish to see both Greece default and the Euro collapse. The UK will not escape the fallout and may well suffer even more simpy because sterling is a major traded currency and because our banks gambled their bonuses on Euro debt as well as US mortgages. When you see just how sterling has performed against the Euro on international markets it is clear the markets see the UK as just as dodgy as Greece Portugal Ireland etc

 

[DownWest]

The idea of a free trade europe was a good one, but under that was a plan by the political class to turn europe into a federal state run by an unelected bunch of champagne socialists
I can't see any good side to what is happening now, as the the 'elite' have pushed the idea beyond any rational economic resolution. Pain for all, inc the UK. I often meet up with eurocrats. To a person, they are dedicated to the system. But do they talk about it? No,it is all about the benifits that they have gained by being involved. I know one well, she wrote much of the fisheries policy that has cost Britain dear. Since I like her, we avoid any talk about the EU, period. Bit like questioning someones religion.

 

[maxi77]

The idea of a free trade europe was a good one, but under that was a plan by the political class to turn europe into a federal state run by an unelected bunch of champagne socialists
I can't see any good side to what is happening now, as the the 'elite' have pushed the idea beyond any rational economic resolution. Pain for all, inc the UK. I often meet up with eurocrats. To a person, they are dedicated to the system. But do they talk about it? No,it is all about the benifits that they have gained by being involved. I know one well, she wrote much of the fisheries policy that has cost Britain dear. Since I like her, we avoid any talk about the EU, period. Bit like questioning someones religion.

The real problem was the free trade europe did not work, too many countries found woderful 'non tarif barriers' to protect national industries as I found out. Germany, France and Italy had wonderful little schemes to make it difficult for other countries to sell to them. The single market and all that went with it became inevitable them. The reality is that free trade areas only work for dominant nations. Now there are plenty of things wriong with what we now have but there is no way back as I see it apart from total isolation.

Perhaps if we had tried to be more at the centre rather than at the fringe we may have made what we have today better but continuing to sit on the outside will just make it worse.

ps The fishery policy was pehaps the biggest bit of **** after CAP and see how long it has taken to get sensible movement on that.

 

[grumpygit]

I must admit I am rather worried by the number of apparent Eurosceptics who seem to wish to see both Greece default and the Euro collapse. The UK will not escape the fallout and may well suffer even more simpy because sterling is a major traded currency and because our banks gambled their bonuses on Euro debt as well as US mortgages. When you see just how sterling has performed against the Euro on international markets it is clear the markets see the UK as just as dodgy as Greece Portugal Ireland etc

Don't just worry about the UK, it's a far far more reaching problem that goes to the roots worldwide. If little ole Greece can destroy the Euro it (€) can't of been in a very healthy state in the first place. Let's face it though it goes a lot, lot deeper with a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Am I a Eurosceptic, you bet your life I am, the more it digresses the more sceptical I become. Did/do I want the € to fail, no! this will not solve the present problems, but believe me it's going to cost us all dearly.

The dreamers in Euroland will have to take it on the chin and clean their own mess up, if that's possible. Most of them put there in a position power undemocratically. they are fiscally inept and all was dream't up by the most powerful for the controlling of the rest of Europe.
(An Austrian corporal also tried this in a very different way.........Sorry for that bit, it's just me just being flippant and cynical.........)

The ultimate blame belongs to the politicians because they created these catastrophe's because of what they are, I think we can all make our own lists for there credentials or lack of them........

Does the human race never ever learn by it's mistakes through history, these times are unprecedented in our modern times ......... definitely one for the history books!

P.S. Just remind me, is the Kingdom of Fife in the EU or a Principality? It doesn't sound very european to me.

__________________________________________________________________

 

[maxi77]

Don't just worry about the UK, it's a far far more reaching problem that goes to the roots worldwide. If little ole Greece can destroy the Euro it (€) can't of been in a very healthy state in the first place. Let's face it though it goes a lot, lot deeper with a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Am I a Eurosceptic, you bet your life I am, the more it digresses the more sceptical I become. Did/do I want the € to fail, no! this will not solve the present problems, but believe me it's going to cost us all dearly.

The dreamers in Euroland will have to take it on the chin and clean their own mess up, if that's possible. Most of them put there in a position power undemocratically. they are fiscally inept and all was dream't up by the most powerful for the controlling of the rest of Europe.
(An Austrian corporal also tried this in a very different way.........Sorry for that bit, it's just me just being flippant and cynical.........)

The ultimate blame belongs to the politicians because they created these catastrophe's because of what they are, I think we can all make our own lists for there credentials or lack of them........

Does the human race never ever learn by it's mistakes through history, these times are unprecedented in our modern times ......... definitely one for the history books!

P.S. Just remind me, is the Kingdom of Fife in the EU or a Principality? It doesn't sound very european to me.

__________________________________________________________________

You are quite right, if it goes tits up it goes tits up for every one. The problem is there are a lot around who seem to think it will be a good thing for the Euro to fail, even some Germans seem to think there is a way back to the mark. Then one looks at the Tea Party lunatics in the US who think the $ is immune. Mind you the worst of all are the Eursceptics in the UK who not only think they are immune but are actively trying to make it happen. Even our chancellor seems to be willing the euro to fail which makes him more of a numpty than my MP.

The Kingdom of Fife is the 'fringe of gold on the beggars mantle'. and how can a kingdom be a principality, they are two completely different things.

You may need a longer spoon

 

[grumpygit]

You are quite right, if it goes tits up it goes tits up for every one. The problem is there are a lot around who seem to think it will be a good thing for the Euro to fail, even some Germans seem to think there is a way back to the mark. Then one looks at the Tea Party lunatics in the US who think the $ is immune. Mind you the worst of all are the Eursceptics in the UK who not only think they are immune but are actively trying to make it happen. Even our chancellor seems to be willing the euro to fail which makes him more of a numpty than my MP.

The Kingdom of Fife is the 'fringe of gold on the beggars mantle'. and how can a kingdom be a principality, they are two completely different things.

You may need a longer spoon

Absolutely, no one is immune from this, they can't handle one currency never mind trying to instigate 27!

Wooden spoon??? I never mentioned the Argintinian v Scotland match.......

____________________________________________________________