Is Greece the place to winter & sell a yacht?

[Zola]

A friend of mine has inherited a Classic 1978 Amel Maramu46 Ketch, presently in Marmaris, Turkey. She intends to sell it as soon as possible but is having little success in Turkey, maybe because of the political problems there deterring visitors.

One option would be to sail her to Greece where there could be more winter flights and customers around. Any advise from the knowledgeable forum members already in Greece on a good place to park and market the boat there would be much appreciated.

If any one is looking for a bargain, you could check her out on appolloduck.com.

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=468240

 

[Yngmar]

That's a pretty popular blue water cruiser rather than a med cruiser - they'd probably fetch a better price (and quicker sale) in the channel.

When I was boat shopping 1-2 years ago, there were loads of boats listed in Greece, usually with poor descriptions and few photos, but for absolute dumping prices. I'm not sure why, I imagine the reason is people sail boats down to the med and then sell them when they're done with them. None on my shortlist ever popped up there, so I never made it there to find out.

There's a significant psychological barrier to buying a boat abroad, starting from the hassle of flying there to view her, to finding a surveyor and broker and all that faff, not to mention the risk of someone snapping it up by the time you arrive there. So it's best to bring the boat to where the buyers are.

Also beware of dropping the price too low to attract buyers - they may think there's something wrong with the boat. Instead, start with a price just below the market (see yachtworld.com) and then leave room to negotiate.

 

[macd]

I'm guessing that Yngmar hasn't had the chance to observe that there are heaps of Amels in the Med -- which there are.

Given the caution many people seem to have about Turkey at present, I imagine a move to Greece would do no harm at all to the boat's marketability. There's also the issue of VAT: assuming the boat's VAT-paid/deemed VAT-paid, it would make sense to offer her for sail in the EU. Selling her in Turkey would risk losing that status.

I've some experience of buying and selling in Greece, and would suggest that any of the three Preveza yards are good places to store a yacht for sale. (The Athens area has rather better winter transport links, so if anyone commends a yard in that area, all well and good.) There are good brokers nearby, notably Williams and Smithells in Levkas.

 

[Sybarite]

A friend of mine has inherited a Classic 1978 Amel Maramu46 Ketch, presently in Marmaris, Turkey. She intends to sell it as soon as possible but is having little success in Turkey, maybe because of the political problems there deterring visitors.

One option would be to sail her to Greece where there could be more winter flights and customers around. Any advise from the knowledgeable forum members already in Greece on a good place to park and market the boat there would be much appreciated.

If any one is looking for a bargain, you could check her out on appolloduck.com.

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=468240

I would say that that is a good price for a Maramu. Beautifully finished inside.

Fwiw this guy is a broker specializing in Amels:

http://www.michelcharpentier.com

 

[Tranona]

Echo above. Greece will be better than Turkey, but old boats like that are difficult to shift wherever they. Potential buyers are unlikely to be local so access to view is important - however, much of Greece shuts down in the winter from a boating point of view, although the Levkas/Preveza/Corfu area is reasonably accessible in winter.

Take note of the advice re VAT. that boat will be deemed VAT paid if it was in the EU in 1992, and has been out of the EU for less than 3 years. It can only keep this status if it is sold in the EU, not in Turkey. I am assuming that the current owner took the boat to Turkey, in which case she will have to bring it back into the EU before it is sold.

While this may seem pedantic, that is the law across the EU, although it is variably enforced, particularly the 3 year bit. However provided the Bill of Sale to the current owner showed it was bought in the EU and the boat is physically in the EU when it is sold, with Bill of Sale showing the sale took place there that should be enough to keep the tax paid status.

If, however, the current owner bought the boat in Turkey (or anywhere else outside the EU0 it is no longer VAT paid and therefore potentially liable to VAT if brought back into the EU.

Just to add an extra complication, I note that the boat has been inherited, so the relief bringing the boat back is only available to the deceased state, so the boat's title should not be transferred to the beneficiary, but be kept with the executor of the estate. Transfer to a beneficiary would count as a sale and VAT status would be lost.

 

[duncan99210]

Agree that the Ionian is probably the right place to try selling. However, it might be worth considering putting the boat into Gouvia marina on Corfu. Two reasons for that: there are flights into the airport year round (albeit via Athens Nov - Mar) and secondly a boat is easier to sell if she's in commission, in the water. The Preveza yards are cheaper than a marina but are a dispiriting place during the winter, not the best place to market a boat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Echo above. Greece will be better than Turkey, but old boats like that are difficult to shift wherever they. Potential buyers are unlikely to be local so access to view is important - however, much of Greece shuts down in the winter from a boating point of view, although the Levkas/Preveza/Corfu area is reasonably accessible in winter.

Take note of the advice re VAT. that boat will be deemed VAT paid if it was in the EU in 1992, and has been out of the EU for less than 3 years. It can only keep this status if it is sold in the EU, not in Turkey. I am assuming that the current owner took the boat to Turkey, in which case she will have to bring it back into the EU before it is sold.

While this may seem pedantic, that is the law across the EU, although it is variably enforced, particularly the 3 year bit. However provided the Bill of Sale to the current owner showed it was bought in the EU and the boat is physically in the EU when it is sold, with Bill of Sale showing the sale took place there that should be enough to keep the tax paid status.

If, however, the current owner bought the boat in Turkey (or anywhere else outside the EU0 it is no longer VAT paid and therefore potentially liable to VAT if brought back into the EU.

Your quite right about the VAT rule regarding boat being out of the EU for a number of years , but is it really that much of a worry ?
Let's just say I brought a boat that has had VAT paid in the past but been in Turkey for some years .
It would take some digging into by custom offices to discover the boat is no longer has a VAT paid states .
And once it back in the EU for a year or two it become even more difficult to prove .
Would you not say so ? .
Are far as I know and I may be wrong , we are not required to keep any document to show where the boat has been over the last few year and as far as logs goes , well that's easy sorted .

 

[Carmel2]

I think he might want to invest in some new photos, some of the opening one's make the boat look a bit tired.

 

[Tranona]

Your quite right about the VAT rule regarding boat being out of the EU for a number of years , but is it really that much of a worry ?
Let's just say I brought a boat that has had VAT paid in the past but been in Turkey for some years .
It would take some digging into by custom offices to discover the boat is no longer has a VAT paid states .
And once it back in the EU for a year or two it become even more difficult to prove .
Would you not say so ? .
Are far as I know and I may be wrong , we are not required to keep any document to show where the boat has been over the last few year and as far as logs goes , well that's easy sorted .

Agree, the risk is probably low. However, it is there and should customs decide to investigate and don't get as satisfactory answer they have the right to demand VAT. You then have to prove the boat is not liable. While there is no legal requirement to keep documentation about where the boat has been, if you are relying on its ownership and location history to claim VAT status (as in this case) then surely it is in your interest to retain such documents.

So best the owner knows the rules and base any decision on that knowledge.

 

[Two Drifters]

Yes. And an Amel is a popular boat, loads in the Med.

Bear in mind with Preveza that the flights stop Oct, so maybe better to go to Athens for ease access

 

[wwalsh]

- needs more photos, especially of machinery and systems. painting bilges and machinery then photos is nice
- inventory list
- repair and upgrade list with dates
in the lists it is an opportunity to declare what does not work, needs service etc in order to exclude those items from the negotiations. it will all come out in the survey anyway
- recent insurance survey

 

[Pasarell]

I've recently bought a boat in Greece and first went to see her in Preveza in April. I had a choice of flights to Athens or Thessaloniki then a long drive to get to the boat. It meant a long weekend from the UK with a few days hire car and a couple of nights hotel. And being very tired when I eventually got back. The boat ticked all the boxes of what I was looking for so it was worth it but a major undertaking nonetheless.
Similar boats in the UK are advertised at significantly higher prices although the 3 that I looked at before going to Greece are still for sale!
In the summer Preveza is easily and cheaply accessible. Corfu the same but both are much harder out of season.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Agree, the risk is probably low. However, it is there and should customs decide to investigate and don't get as satisfactory answer they have the right to demand VAT. You then have to prove the boat is not liable. While there is no legal requirement to keep documentation about where the boat has been, if you are relying on its ownership and location history to claim VAT status (as in this case) then surely it is in your interest to retain such documents.

So best the owner knows the rules and base any decision on that knowledge.

Yes totally agree , it is best to keep prove the boat been in EU ,
What I saying is in the case of finding a boat , say like this that's been in turkey a few years and it ticks all your boxes ,
As long as it has an VAT paid recite , not just a bill of sale , and I was plainning to keep it , let's say Greece I would worry too much about it .
So far no one been interested in VAT , and if you was ask to show , an VAT paid going back some year would surely be enough unless your being picked on for other reason .
And once you had the boat for a season or two you can build up a paper trail .
You have to be very very unlucky , to buy boat and within some weeks of month to get an over Zealoues custom officer .
Bu you are quite right , you should be awhere it can happen .
What do you do if you find a boat in the UK who say the owner have kept in on his private mooring and no mooring prove , do you not buy it .

 

[macd]

As long as it has an VAT paid recite , not just a bill of sale , and I was plainning to keep it , let's say Greece I would worry too much about it .
So far no one been interested in VAT , and if you was ask to show , an VAT paid going back some year would surely be enough unless your being picked on for other reason .

The boat's old enough (1978) to be 'deemed VAT-paid', Vic, providing it has evidence of age and wherabouts on qualifying date. I doubt any VAT receipts exist.
You're quite right that in practice it's something of an academic matter, but it's one that the seller would probably wish to take into account. Besides, Greece is probably a more fruitful place to sell a boat at present.
Regarding duncan's comments about the Preveza yards being 'dispiriting' in winter -- that's certainly true: they're deader than a stuffed dodo. I wouldn't for a minute contemplate liveing aboard there at that time of year. (It's ambiguous whether that's the seller's intention, but I suspect not.)

 

[sailaboutvic]

The boat's old enough (1978) to be 'deemed VAT-paid', Vic, providing it has evidence of age and wherabouts on qualifying date. I doubt any VAT receipts exist.
You're quite right that in practice it's something of an academic matter, but it's one that the seller would probably wish to take into account. Besides, Greece is probably a more fruitful place to sell a boat at present.
Regarding duncan's comments about the Preveza yards being 'dispiriting' in winter -- that's certainly true: they're deader than a stuffed dodo. I wouldn't for a minute contemplate liveing aboard there at that time of year. (It's ambiguous whether that's the seller's intention, but I suspect not.)

That's it Mac , make my day , it's like we going to have one boat on the hard there this winter why I do a refit and the other on the hard to sell , I wasn't looking forward to being there before your remake , I even looking forward to it less now ,
Good job my dodo isn't stuffed

 

[macd]

That's it Mac , make my day , it's like we going to have one boat on the hard there this winter why I do a refit and the other on the hard to sell , I wasn't looking forward to being there before your remake , I even looking forward to it less now ,
Good job my dodo isn't stuffed

Sorry, Vic. The winter's quite short: people about, working on their boats, through November and then returning in March. Trouble is, when they're not there, nothing's open, except across the water in Preveza itself, which manages to bustle year-round.

 

[Squeaky]

Good morning:

This thread seems to have lost it's way and turned into a discussion of VAT.

The original question concerned moving the yacht in question to another location in hopes of increasing the chance of a quick sale.

I am not an expert on yacht sales but I would not recommend moving this yacht from its present location or marina as the late owner was very well known and liked locally and there are numerous long term live aboards keeping an eye on it ensuring that no harm comes to it pending sale.

Moving it to some marina or yard in Greece or elsewhere would simply be an unwarranted expense and probably expose it to potential damage when left unattended.

One fact that I think must be accepted is that second hand yachts are simply not selling quickly just now. Personally I would not be surprised that the "sell up and sail" era is slowly dying as the world has become a much more dangerous place and living aboard has become an expensive way of life unless one wishes to spend most of the time at anchor which is not an attractive idea to most people.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[sailaboutvic]

Good morning:

This thread seems to have lost it's way and turned into a discussion of VAT.

The original question concerned moving the yacht in question to another location in hopes of increasing the chance of a quick sale.

I am not an expert on yacht sales but I would not recommend moving this yacht from its present location or marina as the late owner was very well known and liked locally and there are numerous long term live aboards keeping an eye on it ensuring that no harm comes to it pending sale.

Moving it to some marina or yard in Greece or elsewhere would simply be an unwarranted expense and probably expose it to potential damage when left unattended.

One fact that I think must be accepted is that second hand yachts are simply not selling quickly just now. Personally I would not be surprised that the "sell up and sail" era is slowly dying as the world has become a much more dangerous place and living aboard has become an expensive way of life unless one wishes to spend most of the time at anchor which is not an attractive idea to most people.

Cheers

Squeaky

Squeaky as a rule I found your posting quite good , but I have to disagree with you here , thousands of yacht are left in Greece each year with very little problem . The yards that have been sugested have hundred of yacht .
I agree that the yachtsman market is very slow , but the way things stand regarding turkey people are worried about going there , altho this isn't my view as I still think turkey for yachtsman is as safety as any where else .

 

[Carmel2]

Good morning:

This thread seems to have lost it's way and turned into a discussion of VAT.

The original question concerned moving the yacht in question to another location in hopes of increasing the chance of a quick sale.

I am not an expert on yacht sales but I would not recommend moving this yacht from its present location or marina as the late owner was very well known and liked locally and there are numerous long term live aboards keeping an eye on it ensuring that no harm comes to it pending sale.

Moving it to some marina or yard in Greece or elsewhere would simply be an unwarranted expense and probably expose it to potential damage when left unattended.

One fact that I think must be accepted is that second hand yachts are simply not selling quickly just now. Personally I would not be surprised that the "sell up and sail" era is slowly dying as the world has become a much more dangerous place and living aboard has become an expensive way of life unless one wishes to spend most of the time at anchor which is not an attractive idea to most people.

Cheers

Squeaky

Safety withstanding he still wants to sell it. Netsel vs Preveza...................Preveza, out on the hard all the way.

 

[Squeaky]

Squeaky as a rule I found your posting quite good , but I have to disagree with you here , thousands of yacht are left in Greece each year with very little problem . The yards that have been sugested have hundred of yacht .
.

Good afternoon:

I guess I expressed my thoughts poorly - I did not wish to suggest that yachts were in danger in Greece but that a yacht that was hastily taken to a marina in Greece and left unattended would not be as safe as this particular yacht is today where there are a number of people who were friends of the late owner and are only too happy to keep an eye on it making sure it is safe and that nothing untoward happens to it. It is safely secured in a berth that it has occupied for at least ten years in one of the safest marina I know - it can come to no harm where it is.

Cheers

Squeaky