Is diesel always the best option?

[MickJ]

I have approx £35K to spend and have been looking at 25ft cruisers for the past couple of months. For example, I can get a nearly new petrol Sealine S24 or a good 10 year old diesel of the same style. If I'm not looking to circumnavigate the British Isles every season and just want to poodle up the coast (20 or 30 miles) occasionally, am I really being that 'sensible' buying a diesel?

My current boat uses an outboard so I dont have anything to measure it against.

Thanks...

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[longjohnsilver]

I bet once you have the boat you'll want to go further afield, therefore diesel would be best, cheaper and easier to find. Very few places do petrol. However if you will only use it occasionally, more like a floating caravan, then it really doesn't matter.

Also consider the position when you come to sell, diesel is almost always more desirable to a potential purchaser.

BTW Welcome to the asylum.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[duncan]

regarding measuring up - access to petrol is something you will already be aware of
fuel consumption will depend on a lot of things but the diesel is about 20 more economical
In the UK the margin on price is still high, very high, most noticalble on boats a couple of years old when diesel owners expect high residuals but petrol owners don't seem to!
I bought a 25ft diesel boat new 2 years ago and am delighted with it, equally I was delighted with my 21ft previous boat with a 175 Merc OB, and only really felt major pain on fuelling once when I had towed to Loch Lomond empty and filled to the brim when I got there for about 130 quid.......
The financial breakeven points etc have been done to death on these forums - search under petrol v diesel or similar; comes up about once a month!
A lot depends on what you really want to do with it and where?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[gjgm]

well, Ive heard it said the average use for a sportsboat is 50 hours, and a cruiser 75 hours per annum. OK , an average. Sounds low, but take out 6 mos of the year, take out lousy w-ends, take out w-e you cant use the boat. How many days are you down to? How much of that are you under power, and how much relaxing over lunch,swimming etc. Could well be 50-75 hours. Do a few consumption sums and cost per litre. It takes a long time to balance out the premium you pay for a diesel. Sure, you still get some of that diesel premium you paid when you sell. But I think if your size goes much bigger, and you end up with twin 5.0 petrols, running costs may dampen your enthusiasm. If you go to boattest.com and look at some similar boats, they have petrol consumption figures. 5.0l.. 10-12 (uk) gals per hour unless you want to open that throttle and just check the money overboard! But unless you happen to be on a lake, Id say you wont be at full throttle very often in our seas with 25ft. If its average use, personally I cant see the point of diesel on your size. And you ll get more boat for your price if its petrol . But others may disagree....

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Observer]

Hi Mick,

Received wisdom is that diesel is better and some posters hereabouts are vehement supporters. My view is it depends on what sort of crusing you want to do - where you want to go, where from etc.

These are the main issues (not necessarily in order of importance):

1. Capital cost: petrol engine usually substantially cheaper than diesel

2. Fuel consumption: petrol 2-3 times more expensive per gallon and less economical but better performance. If space permits, possible to fit LPG conversion for bi-fuel capability

3. Maintenance costs: petrol engine cheaper to maintain than a complex (e.g. turbocharged) diesel. Petrol engine more widely serviceable than diesel.

4. Fuel availablility: diesel much more widely available at waterside fuelling points. Not so much of an issue if you're mostly in the Solent area.

5. Safety: not much to choose between them. You need an engine-room blower with a petrol engine and make sure you use it.

6. Depreciation: petrol engine cheaper to start so cheaper to buy at any given age. Otherwise not much to choose.

In your position, if I knew petrol availablilty would never be an issue, I'd go for the newer boat with petrol engine and have an LPG conversion (if possible).



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[longjohnsilver]

LPG

Seems an obvious answer on the face of it, but haven't many of the lpg stations now closed cos of disputes and lack of trade?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[duncan]

despite going the other way myself I would agree unless you really know the trips you are going to do (rather than might!) - if you really find yourself enjoying it all so much as a family and going places then trading up to a diesel financially will make sense. I am based at Poole and whilst I join all the others running out to Studland in the summer (say 1.5 hour round trip average but half of that at tickover) I also think nothing of running round to Swanage, Yarmouth or Lulworth Cove. For me it's in the region of 10 - 20 pounds return but for friends in their petrol boats (Fairline sprint and Four Winns 21ft) it's more like 75 quid a time.
If you think you want the option to trade up then buy something that has sufficent volume in the market - right now there are a lot of Bayliners 2455 and 2655 on the second hand market which should fit your range and if you buy wisely you should be able to resell again. Also the Fairlines and Sealines although they seem to have lower volumes in that size as they were starting to drop the smaller baots through the 90's.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

I must own up first to having petrols so I am a bit biased

My observations are that the cost of running petrols is somewhat misleading, agreed if you blast everywhere flat out the consumption is interesting but who does? (It shakes your fillings out). Last season in 70 hours I used £2500 ish of petrol with 2 X 5 litre Mercs

I have never had any problems getting petrol around the South Coast, obviously supply depends on your location. A jerrycan or two whenever you visit the boat is not too onerous a way of keeping the tank topped up.

Considerations of depreciation of the boat should take into account the lower initial purchase price.

You have to speculate what the EC is going to do to the price of diesel in the future, if it goes up to petrol prices then what will be the premium for a diesel boat?

Much is made of the reliability of diesels but this forum seems to be full of references to diesel bugs. You might like to look at the Yacht Survey Online website that covers the issue of reliability in some depth.

Petrol safety? I don't think my insurance is loaded so perhaps it's not a real issue

Personally I would go for the newer boat but as I said I am biased

Geoff


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tcm]

Good comments below.

I was a vehement suported of diesel only. But after barryd's very light use of a cheap petrol boat, and then almost equally "Light" ahem use of twin diesels, seems praps petrols should not be so hated. He may as well have had petrols.

Availbility fo the stuff is a potential problem, no doubt about it, so check this.

There seems little point in saying (to someone who says they want to pootle 20-30 miles) ah but you'll wann go further. Cos bit like saying they're ok at 4 berths and 25 knots and everyone saying ah but you'll want 35knots soon with 6 berths and persuading them to get that.

So, I wd say ok go for petrols *provided* secondhand, and that you ensure the boat has taken a massive hit on the depreciation. And i mean, a massive massive hit. Like 50% in first 18months, cos lots of people and their dog are negative about petrols. For a "cheap" and lightly used sub 20k boat, petrols will sell on and be reasonably ok. Not sure about as much as 35 k cos that is getting serious loot. Lots (and lots and lots) more market at the 220-25k level, cos like a second or third car.

Is this sealine cheap enough? Could you find a 30ker and offer 25? Or offer 25 on this 35ker and look elsewhere? There are loads, and esp if it is on broekrage, they must be pretty desperate to dump a near-new boat.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[oldgit]

Just a quick comment that a look in a boaty mag this morning revealed west of london marinas still trying to sell for silly money twin engined petrol boats that I looked at 2 years ago.For a little whizzer type boat I found petrol to be more than OK with a day out (Princess 25/Regal 23) costing around 40 quid ish.With my bit bigger diesel boat the same trip costs me 10.00.


<hr width=100% size=1>My little Princess/forums/images/icons/laugh.gifthe 33 of course.

 

[Guest]

I think 50% depreciation in 18months is a bit high!

I traded in a Bayliner for over 80% of the initial cost after 4 years, I last saw it for sale at more than I paid.

Geoff

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ari]

Another aspect is, it depends how you are paying for it.

For example, to keep things simple, if you've got £20K and can buy the 24ft single petrol boat for £20K then you'd be mad to borrow another £10K to go diesel. Yes your fuel costs wil be less, but you'll be paying out every month of the year, summer and winter, rain or shine. At least when the petrol bills are mounting you're clearly out enjoying the boat!

You could of course buy a much older diesel boat to keep the cost down, but whats the point of buying a 10 year old diesel boat rather than a 2 year old petrol boat if all you end up doing is throwing money at maintaining the older boat?

Final point, forget the cost factor for a minute. if all this is is a costing exercise then you are in the wrong game, buy a canoe! This is about fun and enjoyment, not counting every last brass farthing, there are other matters to consider. What no one seems to have mentioned is performance and the pleasure of a smooth powerful petrol over a smoky low powered diesel.

If you buy a Sealine 240/S24 with a diesel, chances are it will have an AQAD 31 four cylinder 130hp turbo diesel in it. Why? Because of the diesel engines inferior power to weight ratio they can't fit an AQAD 41 or KAD 42, too heavy. now look at the petrol options. Typical installation would be an AQ431, which is a 205hp 4.3 litre V6. Less weight but yet almost twice the power! Plus smoother quieter V6 petrol versus smoky rattly noisy 4 cylinder diesel... No contest.

It's a sports boat for goodness sake, its fun, its frivalous, its expensive! When it runs low after one weekends charging around smile as you fill her up and congratulate yourself on getting so much damn good fun into one weekend!! And lets face it, after you've spent £3K berthing it, another £1K servicing it, another £2K on antifouling, anodes, craneage, winter storage, insurance etc etc what really is a grand in petrol? The diesel wouldn't have been free, just cheaper and the fuel bill is a fraction of your running cost.

Do you suppose people on Ferrari web sites sit there saying "I use my Ferrari 20 weekends a year. If I hook the flat 12 out of my Testarossa and install a Perkins diesel how much money will I save on petrol"?

Live a little!

Ari.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Observer]

Hmm.

Think it's generally a good principle to use somebody else's money (if you don't have enough of the stuff yourself), but otherwise well said.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[BarryH]

I'm glad someone has actually got the same angle on this past time as me. Hit the nail on the head and all that. I gave up keeping count of what I spent on the thing years ago. Now all I want to do is enjoy the thing. If I sat down and worked out what the average weekend would cost me, I'd probably have the bank manager on the phone more often. My average cost for a weekend jaunt for fuel is probably a tankfull in the towcar and 3/4 of a tank min in the boat. Its only money you cant take it with you and I don't want to be the richest man in the grave yard.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[BrendanS]

That's one for Kim's FAQ, if it ever happens

Summarises a lot of the issues.
Very nicely put

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tcm]

Hm. Personally i quite fancy the idea of a twin 800hp diesel ferrari. But probably a bit mad, so hopefully lamborghini will make one.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[hlb]

So. To sum it up. If your ever going to go anywhere. You need diesel. On the other hand. If you have no intention of going anywhere much. You need no engines at all or maybe petrol. Which is nearly the same as no engines. Does this help!!

<hr width=100% size=1>

Haydn

 

[hlb]

Yes. Quite agree. I run my outboard, 4 hp on petrol and hardly notice the five pounds a year expence. However When down to serious boating I use my diesels For relyability, Economy and the fact that they will take me to the next gass station, Where ever it is. Petrol is fine for the plodders and Plonkers. But to really go where no man has gone before. You have to go diesel..........Oh heck what have I said.. Is there a delete button here.........../forums/images/icons/frown.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>

Haydn

 

[chippie]

A recent Issue of NZ's major boating magazine had an article on an 11m power cat newly built with twin Yamaha 225 four stroke outboards.
The owner justification was that they saved about 800kg in weight over a similar boat with twin diesels, cost half as much, saving NZ$70,000; and fuel consumption was calculated to be the same in litres per hour. The current pump price for petrol is 101.9c per litre and diesel is 61.9c per litre.
An added bonus was the huge amount of extra storage space where the diesels would have been.
This owner has done his figures and think that they stack up. The unknown figure is the depreciation which in my opinion will continue relatively more rapidly as the outboards get older, but they will be less hassle to replace.
I agree that market perceptions may further work against the long term value.
It would seem that petrol is more readily available dockside over here.




<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by chippie on 02/05/2003 00:37 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[BrendanS]

They will iffn you ask em. and pay big spondoollicks!

<hr width=100% size=1>