Is boating in a death spiral?

[Ceirwan]

Buying a boat can be very cheap these days.

Mooring the boat can be cheap to expensive depending on where you live.

Maintaining a boat is very expensive, sails, electronics, materials etc are all very expensive.
A 70s/80s boat may be relatively affordable to buy, but when you realise that outside the odd coat of varnish, no maintenance or upgrades have been done for potentially decades, then it can be unaffordable.
A new engine for a 25 footer, probably around £5k by the time its fitted if you do the work yourself. (1GM10 about 4.5k) Will it add £5k to the boat, probably not close to that, same for everything, cushions, electrics, sails, rigging these all cost serious money, but realistically you won't get any of that back.

I guess if you're happy sailing an old tatty boat with baggy sails and an unreliable engine then it can be cheap. But to actually keep a boat in good condition is always going to be expensive.

 

[Bouba]

Buying a boat can be very cheap these days.

Mooring the boat can be cheap to expensive depending on where you live.

Maintaining a boat is very expensive, sails, electronics, materials etc are all very expensive.
A 70s/80s boat may be relatively affordable to buy, but when you realise that outside the odd coat of varnish, no maintenance or upgrades have been done for potentially decades, then it can be unaffordable.
A new engine for a 25 footer, probably around £5k by the time its fitted if you do the work yourself. (1GM10 about 4.5k) Will it add £5k to the boat, probably not close to that, same for everything, cushions, electrics, sails, rigging these all cost serious money, but realistically you won't get any of that back.

I guess if you're happy sailing an old tatty boat with baggy sails and an unreliable engine then it can be cheap. But to actually keep a boat in good condition is always going to be expensive.

I’ve been asked at parties what boat do I recommend on a budget of €5000…I always answer, rent

 

[mrming]

I’ve been asked at parties what boat do I recommend on a budget of €5000…I always answer, rent

Is that the budget to buy or the annual budget to run, doing the work yourself?!

 

[Bouba]

Is that the budget to buy or the annual budget to run, doing the work yourself?!

Non boaters think that the running costs are just petrol

 

[Egret]

Linking with the other thread on mooring costs - could you acquire a Prelude or similar and find a mooring on the South Coast for a few hundred pounds a year as some are where I am - or are they thousands - in which case, might that be the problem.

 

[wonkywinch]

When you see the hundreds of AWBs moored up at the plethora of marinas on the Hamble, it's hard to believe the average berthing fee (self included) is five figures.

I pay a smidge under £10k a year plus leccy at MDL.

 

[potentillaCO32]

When you see the hundreds of AWBs moored up at the plethora of marinas on the Hamble, it's hard to believe the average berthing fee (self included) is five figures.

I pay a smidge under £10k a year plus leccy at MDL.

It is staggering. Especially when you see how little many of them get used. Even 1 sail a month for 6 months and it's 2k a sail.

 

[potentillaCO32]

When you see the hundreds of AWBs moored up at the plethora of marinas on the Hamble, it's hard to believe the average berthing fee (self included) is five figures.

I pay a smidge under £10k a year plus leccy at MDL.

I don't get the focus on the hamble/solent compared to say the east coast for London based sailors.
I like the solent, lots of places to stop but the east coast is as interesting in different ways. Certainly quieter and easier to get a berth in the summer. The difference in marina costs are staggering 12k vs 4k.

A chap in the boatyard i am in has bought a gk29 that is in the yard in essex. He lives in london and it is taking him an hour to get to his boat to work on it. He is working out how to get it to the solent where it takes him 2 hours to get to and will cost a shedload to keep. When i suggested keeping it where it is in the east coast he dismissed it out of hand. "Everyone sails on the solent".

 

[Stemar]

It doesn't have to be gazillions for a marina berth in the Solent. A tidal berth can be hundreds rather than thousands, and a club berth, well I won't say how much I pay for mine because I don't like to see drown men weep

Yes, you'll need a dinghy. Some yards offer a water taxi - that packed up and went home as you were coming into the harbour because the wind shifted and slowed you down, so you still need the dinghy,

 

[Bouba]

I don't like to see drown men weep

Great saying…I’ll borrow that

 

[seeSimon]

I always felt that going boating on the solent was rather akin to going on a nice drive around the M25.
Why do it?

Racing a very different thing, of course.

 

[flaming]

I don't get the focus on the hamble/solent compared to say the east coast for London based sailors.
I like the solent, lots of places to stop but the east coast is as interesting in different ways. Certainly quieter and easier to get a berth in the summer. The difference in marina costs are staggering 12k vs 4k.

A chap in the boatyard i am in has bought a gk29 that is in the yard in essex. He lives in london and it is taking him an hour to get to his boat to work on it. He is working out how to get it to the solent where it takes him 2 hours to get to and will cost a shedload to keep. When i suggested keeping it where it is in the east coast he dismissed it out of hand. "Everyone sails on the solent".

I grew up in Suffolk, learned to sail on the east coast. Dad had a Westerly Griffon when I was born, kept it in Titchmarsh. We cruised the east coast extensively, and as his boats got progressively bigger we ventured further afield, Holland, South Coast, Ireland, the Baltic, West France etc...

After moving away I was eventually dragged back to take over the family firm, so I once again live in Suffolk, 30 minutes or so drive from the Orwell.

I keep my boat in a dry sail yard on the Hamble.

It's not that I don't love the East Coast, I do, but for what I want to do, competitive racing, there's simply no comparison. Maybe one day I'll need a break from the racing, in which case a small cruiser on the East Coast would be great. But then again the Solent isn't just popular because everyone is there.

This season we twice had a week free to take the kids cruising. Both times it was really windy, high 20s gusting higher at times. But in the Solent we were still able to get out and sail, and get to new places, in a way that you cannot on the East coast with kids when it's windy. If the boat had been on the East coast we'd have spent 2 weeks basically confined to the Orwell and Stour. Maybe we'd have got to the backwaters if there was enough west in the wind for it to be sheltered. Sure once they're a bit older they might relish a windy beat up the Wallet, but right now that would simply have put them off. The equivalent beat from Hamble to Yarmouth was really exhilarating for a 7 year old without being either scary or taking too long. And even in nice weather the Solent offers so many opportunities to keep passage times down, and many more opportunities for ice cream. And with kids perfecting the ice cream to passage time ratio seems to be a great way of getting them hooked. And if I get them hooked on sailing they'll never have money for drugs....

And if THAT isn't the best self justification of paying an inflated berthing bill that you've ever heard....

 

[doug748]

Buying a boat can be very cheap these days.

Mooring the boat can be cheap to expensive depending on where you live.

Maintaining a boat is very expensive, sails, electronics, materials etc are all very expensive.
A 70s/80s boat may be relatively affordable to buy, but when you realise that outside the odd coat of varnish, no maintenance or upgrades have been done for potentially decades, then it can be unaffordable.
A new engine for a 25 footer, probably around £5k by the time its fitted if you do the work yourself. (1GM10 about 4.5k) Will it add £5k to the boat, probably not close to that, same for everything, cushions, electrics, sails, rigging these all cost serious money, but realistically you won't get any of that back.

I guess if you're happy sailing an old tatty boat with baggy sails and an unreliable engine then it can be cheap. But to actually keep a boat in good condition is always going to be expensive.

True to a point but but you can buy a good boat for 5k at the moment and run it in the region of 2.5k per year as long as you are away from the Solent.
I'm not suggesting that £50 per week is cheap but it is probably doable for many people.

I have been close to this market for the past year and there are some very good, remarkably inexpensive boats to be had - provided you don't mind a bit of work and maybe travel. Very little spending required but this won't last too long, all the best ones will be bought up and the dross will be shaken out one way or another.

Social changes are driving the present slump, small cruising boats are not popular and their time will probably not come again. Happy days if that is the style of sailing you are keen on.

.

 

[winch2]

Its all relative. Friends have holiday homes abroad, costs them thousands a year in air fares, maintenance, legals, not to mention hassle at airports etc. Distance to our boat moored with its own parking in a picturesque channel from our house is five miles. Value of a nice sail to a quiet anchorage then dinner and a few G&T's as the sun sets watching the wildlife is for us immeasurable.

I suppose the entire thing including repairs etc costs us around 2K pa. Its all about value. Personally I think boating if you can keep the costs sensible is still tremendous value for money.

 

[Egret]

Humans where I am seem to like just sitting on their boats or floating around and watching us egrets grebes and turnstones - or floating around in little gaff dinghies or paddleboards and the children in their little dinghies - after all some have been racing in various boats on Thursday and Friday evenings and Saturday so need a rest - but guess that their racing is just an excuse to get away from home and go to the club bar afterwards - like to see the shrieks and splashes when the paddleboards disturb a big flat fish in the shallows - don't think they spend much more that 1.5K pa and the little boats much less. We would have the whole anchorage to ourselves if it was 12K per boat. Like the little electric outboards, they don't disturb our peace.

 

[potentillaCO32]

And if THAT isn't the best self justification of paying an inflated berthing bill that you've ever heard....

I get that, really do. In fact when i finish the co32 refit i will keep her for 1/2 season on the hamble to join in some of the contessa races/events before taking her to her southern brittany home which to me is the solent on steroids.

But i still don't think the solent is worth 3 or 4 times the cost of an east coast berth particularly for a recreational sailor.

 

[nestawayboats]

If you're willing to get to your boat by dinghy, you can still moor in the Solent for a "reasonable" price. For me, the trigger to move to a cheaper mooring was when the proposed renewal bill reached more than half what (I hope!) my boat is worth.

And as it turns out I rather like the peace and quiet on our deepwater swinging mooring out by Peewit Island (Portsmouth Harbour). It is shock horror 15 minutes each way by dinghy - often quite a pleasant trip - and you can only launch the dinghy from the "home" yard 2hrs either side of high tide. But as it happens that's when you want to turn up anyway, if you want to go to any destination in the Solent (they're all West of Portsmouth, and the tide starts going West at HW-2). The tides/timing work similarly in reverse coming back.

That might sound rather restrictive but probably no more restrictive than moorings in marinas with lock gates... queues to get in/out of Chichester or Port Solent marinas on a sunny Summer weekend for example. We still timed our weekends around the tides when we had an all-tide access walk ashore pontoon berth.

Our dinghy launch/trip is from a pontoon, so don't worry we're not getting wet/muddy feet or anything terrible like what we had to put up with (from a slipway) in the '70s!

As I mentioned in another post (the one about a Sadler 32 being scrapped) £100 a month instead of £100 a week is quite an incentive to cope with some "inconvenience", most of which I don't find "several hundred Pounds a trip inconvenient".

I might be able to speed up the dinghy trip with one of these new 2kW electric outboards but that's another subject...

 

[Stemar]

if you want to go to any destination in the Solent (they're all West of Portsmouth, and the tide starts going West at HW-2).

Do you never got to Chichester Harbour or Bembridge? I appreciate that the tides are wrong for you, but there are places to the east as well.

Also worth considering Hardway Sailing Club, as you can launch a dinghy there at pretty much any state of the tide to get to and from your mooring, though you'll want some wheels on it- the pontoon is 500m long, and you'll need to go most of the way down if you're launching at low springs

 

[dgadee]

Just came across Mike Bender's A New History of Yachting. The last two chapters outline and predict exactly what has been happening (the book would have been written a decade ago and published in 2017). It is a death spiral. What is interesting in the text is the social context is brought to the fore - the changing nature of household economics on the various strata of life. He suggests water sports are perhaps a way to get people into declining yacht clubs. Well worth a read.

 

[flaming]

I get that, really do. In fact when i finish the co32 refit i will keep her for 1/2 season on the hamble to join in some of the contessa races/events before taking her to her southern brittany home which to me is the solent on steroids.

But i still don't think the solent is worth 3 or 4 times the cost of an east coast berth particularly for a recreational sailor.

..... The bit of my post that you quoted was mostly a joke at my own expense about getting the kids into sailing so they can't afford drugs...

Not worth it to you, but if it wasn't worth it to others it wouldn't be so expensive... And FYI, the stated cost at SYH is almost exactly 1/2 of the stated cost of an equivalent Hamble marina, not 3-4 times.