dgadee
Well-Known Member
One reason for older boats is two keels. Not so many new boats can take the ground these days unless you pay big money. That is why I am doing up a Fulmar. I can't afford an RM etc.
Is boating in a death spiral?
- Thread starter Otter
- Start date
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
The camping point is really good. Marina berthing as a visitor in my Corribee is the same price as camping locally.
We should also bear the time of year in mind. Everyone is renewing berths imminently which means you can knock £1k-£10k of any boat and few people are looking.
Momac
Well-Known Member
A lot of people moan about the cost of boating. But they seem unaware that costs for almost everything has risen.
As said other alternative leisure activities like motorhomes/caravans are similar annual costs.
As said other alternative leisure activities like motorhomes/caravans are similar annual costs.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
What is the lifespan of a caravan?
ridgy
Well-Known Member
20 years give or take to depreciate to the 2 or 3k value range, if kept in reasonable order, and become worthless if they suffer damp penetration.
ylop
Well-Known Member
A boat that wa £10k pre-covid was probably 40 yrs old? Its now 45 yrs old, probably had no real investment for last 5 yrs and going to cost you more than £3k just to store it and keep in in working condition. Anyone who has the money for the upkeep probably has the money for something nicer and newer.
Many would - but that's also a generation that buys into van life, and even "sail life", a generation that will spend money on cars and holidays, which drinks less but spends more on clothes and coffees, which accepts technology costs as essential, and probably has to do more for themselves in pension planning. Have you looked at what people pay for a wedding these days? There's more of them not having kids, or even getting into long-term relationships early which means potentially less financial burden but also fewer 40/50 somethings who's children have fledged the nest and now have cash again. As more people go to uni many parents feel obligated to support them for longer too. I don't think all the blame rests with the housing crisis.
Which is a lot of cash, but to put it in perspective, we had a 2 week holiday for under £300 (marina fees, eating out etc) if you exclude the above costs... as well as a number of weekends throughout the season - so to us its actually still quite good value compared to chartering (which would cost our annual budget for 1 week).
I can imagine a greater role for "clubs" in ownership - where a club owns a small flotilla of boats which people use on a time share basis. The other sort of club that will likely thrive is ones who provide a lower cost storage solution. >75% of my boating costs come from the 6 months we don't go sailing!
Interesting - I can't think of a single marina on the West of Scotland / Clyde which would make for a good housing development. But marina prices have bloomed and may need to calm down if there is indeed less demand.
Not convinced - the people who do buy into this stuff will increasingly never have services their own car so not want to do an engine, are less likely to own a sewing machine so will not DIY canvas work etc, etc. So actually I think the market for marine trades is probably actually not too bad - nobody wants to spend thousands on trades if you bought a boat for £3000 but if you spend 10-20x that paying someone else to fix your sails, engine etc is less eye watering.
This was only ever a niche activity by a tiny % of privileged people.High end stuff will still be made and sold and they’ll be a thriving hire market but as for the days of families going sailing in their own boat - that’s going fast
Otter
Well-Known Member
Motor homes yes but most people with a caravan stick it on a drive for nothing.
Clearly boating is booming for some, it’s whether the current structure will ensure its future that I question. Marina ownership is so leveraged by the potential housing development premium that there’s no possibility of prices falling. Just a gradual development into waterside property. I wonder if we asked most people at what age they bought their first cruising boat then tried to find anyone of that age who is entering the cruising boat market?
ylop
Well-Known Member
On the other hand work life balance, 4 days weeks, annual leave allowances and options to "buy" extra leave have never been so common. For us the reasons to buy were:
- we can look at the weather on Wed and decide to go sailing this weekend or not; no long term planning; no frantic hunting for a booking; no wishing we hadn't made a booking because the weather was so grim.
- we can keep all our stuff on board, jump in the car with very little and head off.
- we know the boat, its layout, how stuff works, how it handles etc.
You could call the emotional but I'd call it a convenience factor. We chartered before and spent a not insignificant mount of the time dealing with those issues.
That would be mad - you could pay half that and keep it in some of the best sailing in the UK, and use the other half for flights to visit it!
I'm not entirely convinced by your stereotypes! There's lots of people who go skiing and never leave a piste, lots of people go rock climbing but never go outside, and lots of people who do paddle sports in benign conditions only. Even without considering those who never leave their sofa, the majority are not seeking ultimate adventure. Now there's plent of "instagram" potential in sailing so I don't see why it shouldn't be more popular.
I doubt that. Not least because I'm sure that many caravan owners don't have a (large enough) driveway. There are many caravan storage facilities - the equivalent of the boat yard. The advantage is you don't need a cradle or a hoist etc.
I don't think it would be hard to find someone from each age group. Of course the "quitting sailing" age has probably also gone up on average as technology improved, money enabled more comfort and lifespans increase. If I was being cynical I might suggest that's led to a bit of an old fuddy duddy perception around some sailing clubs (same is true for golf).
ridgy
Well-Known Member
Actually I think most use a secure storage facility for about 500 per year, probably somewhere close to their chosen area for the year. Partly for security and partly to reduce the towing distance.
Not many have room for a caravan on the drive and of those less want to look at it every day.
winch2
Well-Known Member
Its just not user friendly is it. From the long drive on a Friday evening to hanging on in a blow, to groping about in the bilge, and then the cost. I love it but its hard on all fronts and probably why I never leave my boat even on a work day without having a good hour at least sippng something nice and just making time to enjoy the ambience, cause goodness knows the rest of it can be a bear. The harbours and marinas are full of boats with broken promises.
Otter
Well-Known Member
I love that phrase “harbours and marinas are full of boats with broken promises”
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
This is clearly not the case. The hot sector of classic car auctions are cars from this era: fast Escorts, Sierra Cosworths, Golf & Peugeot GTi etc are all selling for insane sums, while prices of the old blue chip models such as the Jaguar XKs have crashed and continue to fall. The demographic of buyers has moved on.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
It's like Elvis stuff. People of a certain age go and buy things from their youth.
ylop
Well-Known Member
I do have the Friday evening drive issue (but could sail 20 minutes from home in an area that's interesting enough for a few weekends a year), but the only time I'm groping about in the bilge is to find a cold beer! As for hanging on in a blow - someone further up was complaining it wasn't risky enough! But you can plan your sailing to minimise the discomfort - we always tell people we go where the wind takes us, rather than making plans and fighting the weather.
It is undeniably expensive - but so is skiing, still hugely popular as far as I know. Rock climbing might look cheaper but I did my share of grim weather trips, gear is not cheap there, and have you seen what a youth hostel costs now? Mountain biking is sometimes called the new golf, not at all unusual to see people spending lots and living our a van with worse than sailing comfort levels. Sailing might be doing itself a disservice with its costs by pricing it as "even a cheap swing mooring is £2500" a year, when it could be spun as "your whole family from just £48/week". Or in other words about the cost of 1 pint per day at modern prices!
Snowgoose-1
Well-Known Member
It was not too long ago, that often an entry into sailing, was the inheritance of a house/property from parents.
It's often the case now, that large chunks of that are now for children/grandchildren to gain entry to the housing market.
There are just too many people in the UK chasing too few available properties. The love of the sea and boats will still burn brightly for some and they will somehow find a way that many of us did.
It's often the case now, that large chunks of that are now for children/grandchildren to gain entry to the housing market.
There are just too many people in the UK chasing too few available properties. The love of the sea and boats will still burn brightly for some and they will somehow find a way that many of us did.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
That’s a rolling age band, with a sweet spot that is soon obsolete.
I’ve amassed a lot of expensive electric guitars and big valve amps that will soon be almost worthless as younger musicians have different tastes and an aversion to bad backs and tinnitus from a wall of Marshall stacks.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
I think you’ll be alright with the guitars and amps hopefully .
If they play well and are individually fantastic sounding examples of each classic type then that surely is a uniqueness difficult to replicate with newly sourced timber perhaps? No matter how clever the modern manufacturing or software.
Similarly a trailer sailer kept out of the water , wrapped or better still, stored undercover and even better at home on its own wheels, this will outdo something racking up fees and exposure to the elements @ a distance in some berth or yard.. where bills and replacement parts operate on the cubic factor of length.
If they play well and are individually fantastic sounding examples of each classic type then that surely is a uniqueness difficult to replicate with newly sourced timber perhaps? No matter how clever the modern manufacturing or software.
Similarly a trailer sailer kept out of the water , wrapped or better still, stored undercover and even better at home on its own wheels, this will outdo something racking up fees and exposure to the elements @ a distance in some berth or yard.. where bills and replacement parts operate on the cubic factor of length.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
I think you’ll be alright with the guitars and amps hopefully .
If they play well and are individually fantastic sounding examples of each classic type then that surely is a uniqueness difficult to replicate with newly sourced timber perhaps? No matter how clever the modern manufacturing or software.
A white elephant collection of white Les Pauls, 100w heads and 4x12s loaded with greenbacks, that are world class at a 70s classic rock tone have no interest for young musicians who want modelling amps with digital outputs they can easily carry on the underground.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
My view of the general market for older boats is slightly different to most of the comments. I started sailing in the mid 1960's when glassfibre boats were relatively new in the market and replacing wooden boat building. They were cheaper to build, so virtually killed off wooden boat building. Over the decades, better designs have evolved, production methods have become more mechanized in giant factories - but as more boats have been produced very few of the older boats are removed from the market.
Rust, repair costs and accidents limit the total number of cars, but what destroys glassfibre boats? During the same period the demand for berths/moorings have increased, but there has been no new marinas built in the past 30 years even though there are vastly more boats now than then.
People looking to buy a boat or change their current boat are wanting larger more modern designs, they are not interested in floating camping where 6 people cram into a 30 ft boat for a holiday. They can easily afford a 10 to 20 year old boat in the 35 to 40 ft range. Basically no one wants small boats, especially old ones that are poorly maintained.
However mooring/storage costs are now becoming the death for many boats. There is no simple and cheap way to dispose of old boats, so they get dumped in cheap harbours or creeks and the owners disappear. There are plenty of marinas and boatyards that have boats that do not pay the fees. Their only option is to try and sell them to recoup the fees owing, but frequently they never get what is owed or they have to pay to remove/scrap them. Ultimately all of us end up paying via higher berthing costs to get rid of these old boats.
We all love our boats. When I bought Concerto,, she was 34 years old, but now she is 45. Perhaps I am an unusual owner as I have tried to renovate her to close to new standard as possible. She is in better condition today than when I bought her, how many of you can say the same. I know of plenty of owners who have kept a boat for over a quarter of a century, but slowly over time they become tired, have a few knocks and scrapes that do not get repaired properly. This makes it less appealing to potential buyers. When the boat does come to market, reality hits the owner.
When I was berthed in Chatham Marina, I was almost opposite 3 sailing school boats. The age range of clients was quite interesting. It was fairly strong for 20 to 30 years olds, dropped off in the 40s, but late 50's and early 60's was very buoyant. Chatting with some of these people, many planned to buy their own boat. There is certainly an influx of potential owners still entering the boating world, but what they want to buy does rule out many older smaller boats. Ultimately many of these boats need to be scrapped as they have exceeded their working life. Would most of us miss them? I doubt it.
Rust, repair costs and accidents limit the total number of cars, but what destroys glassfibre boats? During the same period the demand for berths/moorings have increased, but there has been no new marinas built in the past 30 years even though there are vastly more boats now than then.
People looking to buy a boat or change their current boat are wanting larger more modern designs, they are not interested in floating camping where 6 people cram into a 30 ft boat for a holiday. They can easily afford a 10 to 20 year old boat in the 35 to 40 ft range. Basically no one wants small boats, especially old ones that are poorly maintained.
However mooring/storage costs are now becoming the death for many boats. There is no simple and cheap way to dispose of old boats, so they get dumped in cheap harbours or creeks and the owners disappear. There are plenty of marinas and boatyards that have boats that do not pay the fees. Their only option is to try and sell them to recoup the fees owing, but frequently they never get what is owed or they have to pay to remove/scrap them. Ultimately all of us end up paying via higher berthing costs to get rid of these old boats.
We all love our boats. When I bought Concerto,, she was 34 years old, but now she is 45. Perhaps I am an unusual owner as I have tried to renovate her to close to new standard as possible. She is in better condition today than when I bought her, how many of you can say the same. I know of plenty of owners who have kept a boat for over a quarter of a century, but slowly over time they become tired, have a few knocks and scrapes that do not get repaired properly. This makes it less appealing to potential buyers. When the boat does come to market, reality hits the owner.
When I was berthed in Chatham Marina, I was almost opposite 3 sailing school boats. The age range of clients was quite interesting. It was fairly strong for 20 to 30 years olds, dropped off in the 40s, but late 50's and early 60's was very buoyant. Chatting with some of these people, many planned to buy their own boat. There is certainly an influx of potential owners still entering the boating world, but what they want to buy does rule out many older smaller boats. Ultimately many of these boats need to be scrapped as they have exceeded their working life. Would most of us miss them? I doubt it.
ylop
Well-Known Member
I suspect that is still the case but with many parents now living longer perhaps the typical age of inheritance is older and people are less likely to start something new or feel like taking on something as big as sailing at what might now be a ripe old age themselves?
I always thought retirement payouts were a common way to fund a shiny new boat too. Again though as pension ages have crept up it might not seem so appealing - a 55 yr old getting a good early retirement deal with final salary and lump sum might be more inclined to splash on a boat compared to a 66 yr trying to buy an annuity themselves who might feel extravagance is a risk.
Arrithmetically though if the inheritance predominantly came from grandparents property that property should be worth much more.
Actually what I’m hearing is the reason boat sales might be poorer - is in fact all the OAPs on this site refusing to die and financially enable their descendants!