Is a logbook necessary

[jerrytug]

Why do people keep harping on about "a court of law" etc? Sailing is supposed to be as safe as walking down the street,and who logs that,let alone walking the dog,cycling or god forbid driving to the supermarket? Anything you write down has no particular legal status,and who cares? It`s a record,factual or fictional as you please,of a jolly leisure activity.
Well spotted by the poster who noticed the similarity of "official" yacht logs to big peaked caps with "SKIPPER" in gold letters!
SOLAS requires a passage plan,no need to write it down.
Personally,I refresh my exercise book after the event when I have the advantage of hindsight!
Regards Jerry
Excel spreadsheets? give me strength!

 

[l'escargot]

Why do people keep harping on about "a court of law" etc? ...

You always hear it. I would be extremely surprised if there was anyone on here (in an amateur capacity) that had ever been asked to produce one in a court. In my one and only insurance incident no mention was ever made of whether or not I had a log book. I think it is another of those urban myths like everyone running into each other because they are all aiming for the same waypoint

 

[Poignard]

The law is a ass

You always hear it. I would be extremely surprised if there was anyone on here (in an amateur capacity) that had ever been asked to produce one in a court. In my one and only insurance incident no mention was ever made of whether or not I had a log book. I think it is another of those urban myths like everyone running into each other because they are all aiming for the same waypoint

The thing that gets me riled is when people say, pompously, "It is a legal requirement that ......", when what they really mean is that they haven't the faintest idea whether it is or not but, because they choose to do something, everyone else should be compelled to do it.

I think anyone who writes "It is a legal requirement that ...", should be made to to go and sit for in a dusty courtroom in high summer for a month listening to the most boring cases on the list.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

So ... are some of you people above telling me I should keep a log if I go for a jolly round the Solent on a Saturday afternoon? ... Frankly my dear, I'd rather take up golf. How many of the above wear bobble hats? ... come on now ... own up!

 

[Sybarite]

If ever time spent in home waters is an issue for immigration or customs, the log book is the first thing checked.

John

 

[dylanwinter]

Logs schmogs and paperwork

I go sailing to escape the paper work and record keeping - I am self employed and I do a lot of record keeping for the governement already - much of it of doubtful value

On my journey around the UK so far, no-one anywhere has asked me to see any bits of paper - apart from those with the queens head on them of course - and those they want to keep

I have no formal sailing qualifications at all - although I do have a vhf license - but I have only used the handheld twice so far - once to ask which bit of the Thames barrier they wanted me to pass through and another time to get into Dover Harbour . I am beginning to think that was a bit of paper I did not need - but then I am not one of those prannets who love to waste the time of the coast-guard asking for radio checks.

The only other bit of paper I thought I should aquire was third party insurance - but I have not hit anything yet.


I blame the sailing schools and the way they love to make a simple thing way too complicated. Bet Old Arthur or Erskine didn't have too many bits of paper about their person

you blokes.....love you for your love of precision....but blimey chaps... sailing is supposed to be fun... isn't it?

 

[rivonia]

You always hear it. I would be extremely surprised if there was anyone on here (in an amateur capacity) that had ever been asked to produce one in a court. In my one and only insurance incident no mention was ever made of whether or not I had a log book. I think it is another of those urban myths like everyone running into each other because they are all aiming for the same waypoint

How nieve can one be! Myth no it is a fact. We were hit by Hurricane allison and eventually limped into Isle de Flores Azores after a rest deisel recuperation made it to Faial-Horta . There was the insurance claims assesor who had to send photo copies certified by the lawyer to Pantanious in UK. Without the LOG BOOK my claim would not have been valid. Paid in full All Factual. We still have our old log books and often reminisce.

Peter

 

[peterb]

If ever time spent in home waters is an issue for immigration or customs, the log book is the first thing checked.

You're in France? That's one of the problems.

Under IMO rules, the requirement for a logbook is one for the flag state, the country of registry, rather than the port state, the one in whose waters you are currently resting. I am told (by French friends) that France has decided that all French boats should have a logbook. Further, they require precautions against the logbook being altered; it should not be loose-leaf, and should be in pen, not pencil.

The average French douanier knows French law, but cannot be expected to know the laws of all other flag states. So, quite illegally, he expects to apply French law to all boats that he boards. He is unlikely to believe that UK law does not require us to keep an official logbook.

Now if you are caught and penalised by that douanier, there are official routes by which the penalty can be reversed. But, like all official routes, they are extremely slow. As a result, it's easier to keep a logbook if you are going to call at a French port. But, as someone else has said, they're only really interested in where you've been, not in wind strengths or sailing tacks. Keep a good record of arrival and departure times and places, and have a column marked "Douanier behaviour". After all, it's an official logbook, where else should you record such things?

 

[l'escargot]

How nieve can one be! Myth no it is a fact. We were hit by Hurricane allison and eventually limped into Isle de Flores Azores after a rest deisel recuperation made it to Faial-Horta . There was the insurance claims assesor who had to send photo copies certified by the lawyer to Pantanious in UK. Without the LOG BOOK my claim would not have been valid. Paid in full All Factual. We still have our old log books and often reminisce.

Peter

How uninformed can one be! An insurance claim cannot be invalidated because you haven't kept a document that you aren't required to keep. What were you doing, sat down below writing your log in the midst of a hurricane? All any amateur log book is good for is reminiscing, they are no evidence of fact whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Rivonia may have a point about insurance if it is stated in the contract. It could even be inferred that not keeping a log was somehow negligent therefore, an excuse not to pay out.

I am not sure at all about leisure boats and any legal requirements about log books. I am sure, as an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor (Commercial) that a log book is necessary to record suitable information to work up the yachts EP from the last known position, for example. That's why RYA Sea Schools will make a point about maintaining a log.

I believe that Refueler on another posting stated that for any log to be used in a witness capacity it had to be written in pen.

I maintain one log only for navigation and recording items to be fixed and when they are fixed. It takes no particular format, simply an A4 lined book, with a date and time for each entry. I know what to record for navigating so don't need a column format with appropriate headings.

 

[nortonmotors]

I use an ordinary ruled A4 book to keep a daily record of forecasts that I haven't missed, of HW and LW for places I might end up in, and distances travelled.
If I don't do the first, the crew can always be relied upon to look at the sky, mutter to himself, then pronounce 'it looks a bit iffy' and suggest we go back to the pub 'til it blows over'.
In reality, I know my memory isn't as good as it was and writing things down seems to help.
It is a record of the moment, and I don't think I've ever used it to remind me of previous passages.

 

[Searush]

I would quite happily write up a log book, an essay or even a novel if some idiot in an insurance office thousands of miles away believed it simply because I had payed a local laywer to sign it! Bless 'em all.

I used to keep log books & they were very useful when passage planning to see how long a similar journey had taken in the given conditions. However, I tend to do short journeys & generally the same favourite trips over & again so the need to keep recording the same stuff wasn't there.

Still need to passage plan as there are lots of tidal gates that have to be met where I sail - at least they have to be met if you don't want to spend all your time sitting on sandbanks, sailing backwards or hours on end being tossed around in overfalls. But I no longer bother to record or keep them.

 

[Tommyrot]

How nieve can one be! Myth no it is a fact. We were hit by Hurricane allison and eventually limped into Isle de Flores Azores after a rest deisel recuperation made it to Faial-Horta . There was the insurance claims assesor who had to send photo copies certified by the lawyer to Pantanious in UK. Without the LOG BOOK my claim would not have been valid. Paid in full All Factual. We still have our old log books and often reminisce.

Peter

So, if your log had been lost or destroyed during hurricane conditions, the insurance co would have refused any claim?

Lets hope that the skipper of a sinking boat remembers to take his log into the liferaft....

 

[rivonia]

So, if your log had been lost or destroyed during hurricane conditions, the insurance co would have refused any claim?

Lets hope that the skipper of a sinking boat remembers to take his log into the liferaft....

Not so. I do not think that they would specifically refused my claim. It just proved everything stated in the claim form and each log entry was in INK. As for taking the log book if we were sinking YES we would. It was a very scary time for us and we even had the grab bags and life raft ready. A big learning curve.

Peter

 

[LadyInBed]

So ... are some of you people above telling me I should keep a log if I go for a jolly round the Solent on a Saturday afternoon?

No. SOLAS says passage plan not log for voyage in 'open water' and whatever the intrepid mariner thinks when setting sail from Portsmouth to the IoW it aint 'open water'.

Regulation 34 – Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations (including passage planning) “Going to sea” is defined as proceeding outside of 'categorized waters' (most of the Solent area counts as categorised waters). MCA guidance notes say for “small craft and pleasure vessels, the degree of voyage planning will be dependent on the size of the vessel, its crew and the length of the voyage.

Taken from: http://www.crouch-sailing-school.co.uk/new-solas-rules.htm

 

[dylanwinter]

phew thats a relief

thats one more thing I don't have to worry about not having done then

or is that then a double negative

and therefore something I should be worrying about having done

there you see

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Not so. I do not think that they would specifically refused my claim. It just proved everything stated in the claim form and each log entry was in INK. As for taking the log book if we were sinking YES we would. It was a very scary time for us and we even had the grab bags and life raft ready. A big learning curve.

Peter

No, I still don't see it. A log written in ink it doesn't prove when it was written. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great you keep a detailed log, but the insurance company would have paid out based upon your written insurance claim, not your log.

I have spoken to loads of people who have made marine insurance claims and none of them were refused due to the lack of a log. In fact, I can't recall any of them having a claim refused. Even Kawasaki, who has allegedly knocked the tops off more rocks than anybody else on Earth!

 

[Abestea]

Whilst enduring -14C nights last week, I curled up in front of the fire and relived the whole of 2009 through my log book.

2 May 2009

10.30 - Left harbour, turned right, tootled around a bit.

13.00 - Returned to harbour.

3 May 2009

11.15 - Left harbour, turned left, tootled around a bit.

12.58 - Returned to harbour.

23 May 2009

08.35 - Left harbour, turned left, tootled around a bit.

11.17 - Returned to harbour.

Etc, etc.

Heaven!

Here thats plaigarism! You have been copying from me!!!

 

[Foxy]

For reference, the law is: The Merchant Shipping (Official Log Book) Regulations 1981 section 4 states something like all UK ships apart from those under 25 tonnes, fishing vessels and pleasure boats need to keep a log book... etc etc

Worthless info really as most of us scribble something down, as our memories are shot to bits by cheap rum or we need them for navigation. Maybe useful in the pub?

The only time I've ever had to really use our log in earnest was when we got struck by lightning offshore and I had to relearn how to navigate in one easy lesson....
It was examined during boarding in Martinique once, but as the guy couldnt read it, it was somewhat academic really...

 

[tcm]

yep, i reckon rivonia was asked for log book so the ins co could play for time a bit, hum and haw, oh dear no logbook, hm. There again maybe they asked for rivvy's logbook cos the claim form didn't make a word of sense, ahem. "Nieve", fabulous, jeez. .