H4B
Well-Known Member
But it's primarily a self declration rating system and standard hull boats do not have to be weighed. What you propose is A Grand Prix type rating system for pure racers that IRC clearly state that it is not.
IRC racing
- Thread starter KREW2
- Start date
flaming
Well-Known Member
Yes it is, and I don't see why that couldn't remain, whilst also allowing people who only use their boat for racing to modify it to better suit their purpose without attracting punative rating penalties. All you'd have to do is insist that anyone who removed standard items had to be weighed. Let's be clear, anyone who is serious about IRC is weighed anyway, as almost every boat ever made is heavier than its design weight.
I think on this issue RORC are stuck in a time warp where the people racing under IRC are cruising to the channel islands the following week. That, in my experience, does not happen any more. I can think of one boat that we sail against regularly that cruises, and they have some major surgery to do - furling gear on, stackpack on, sprayhood on, cruising sails on, cutlery, crockery, dinghy, liferaft, outboard, etc.... You don't do that more than once a season so they race for a couple of months, then disappear cruising, then come back.
The days where you could win IRC races in cruising trim are long gone. Sad but true. To do the minor stuff we do to deliver the boat to Dartmouth (which mainly consists of loading crockery etc, bending on the delivery main, stowing the race sails, filling the tanks...) takes me a morning.
All that's happening in not allowing cruiser racers to remove things like doors that catch sails, tables that aren't used, cushions that only get wet etc is that they are getting unnecessarily damaged being dragged around the race course on boats that are then put back to bed that night. If we simply got the weight penalty for the items removed, rather than a punative penalty, we'd happily remove them and keep them dry ashore for the one week a year we do need them.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Flaming, I mostly agree, but one small point, IRC is not just RORC it's UNCL too isn't it?
And I've met a few more truly dual purpose French boats.
Isn't the cure to sell the boat without the cruising extras?
And I've met a few more truly dual purpose French boats.
Isn't the cure to sell the boat without the cruising extras?
flaming
Well-Known Member
Very good point. And yes, that is the cure, still grates that the Corby's etc that never had the table and doors don't get pinged for removing what they never had!
Kerenza
Well-Known Member
I bought my boat to cruise, I race it when possible. I cant justify the extra expense, in time as well as money, of full IRC rating.
The only difference when racing is sails and crew. There are many boats locally who do the same.
Some of the NHC fleet might prefer to see me in the IRC fleet, but that's a local conditions issue.
I, along with many others, race for enjoyment and to improve my sailing skills.
It is nice to win, but not essential to having a good time.
M
The only difference when racing is sails and crew. There are many boats locally who do the same.
Some of the NHC fleet might prefer to see me in the IRC fleet, but that's a local conditions issue.
I, along with many others, race for enjoyment and to improve my sailing skills.
It is nice to win, but not essential to having a good time.
M
H4B
Well-Known Member
Things is, you guys at the sharp end of racing are not very good advocates for a wider role out of IRC to run of the mill truly dual purpose boats, at clubs around UK. This is clearly RYA IRC/RORC intention. Perhaps you would rather it didn't happen ?
NHC is fine for within club racing but the tcc do not travel for regattas etc and an IRC rating is the only tangible certificate to wave at a regatta rating committee even if they use their own local rating system , it is a point of reference for the 20-30 year old cruiser racer run on a budget and if there is a system that can pitch the former against newer models and bring the point of difference down to skill and tactics then that has to be good doesn't it.
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flaming
Well-Known Member
No I'd be delighted if it did happen, as it would mean more boats racing. And by and large I actually think IRC does a very good job of rating broadly similar boats. Like all rating systems it struggles with wildly different boats, but for a fleet of displacement cruiser racers it's pretty good.
But why does taking the forecabin door off, and the cushions off, make us faster than if we were able to simply remove that same weight from the hull?
I would suggest that as with all racing, it's not the rating system being used, but the level of sailing. Even in OD sailing if one guy buys more sails, employs pro crew, dry sails when the others are all kept afloat, then they have the advantage. If that happens in a fleet it can kill it - see the Solent J24 and Melges 24 fleets for prime examples. If the local fleet are all happy with dacron sails etc then IRC will work just fine. But the minute someone arrives and is playing the IRC game harder, with shiny sails etc then it's all over.
One way to handle this would be to have a local SI that states that sails must be Dacron, or at least 5 bottles of wine must be aboard or whatever else the fleet decide is their level of sailing.
But then of course when you travel there will be people doing the no holds barred approach to IRC.
H4B
Well-Known Member
I understand where you're coming from but I guess IRC have to draw a line somewhere and the ' loose stuff if boat inverted' is an easily understood point to start from without the variables of changing from the standard. If I understand you correctly if you declare that you have removed a table and a few doors you are penalised in your opinion disproportionately . Are boats that declare weighty additions given redress? Because the application asks for such additions.
Also your point re local SI's and club racing could be used constructively for older boats.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Yes, you can add ballast and re-weigh, provided it's fixed. Guess a nice heavy aftermarket table would qualify! But 5 points for removing a door (that we declared as still being on the boat, just not in it's designed position) is a punative hit designed to stop you from doing that. So now we rip sailbags on the handle....
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
If you think you're hard done by, try racing an ex-IRM boat.
You can always tape up the handle - we used to do that on a cruiser racer where we hoisted the spinnaker from the forecabin. There was more at risk than the sailbag and it did work, although the forehatch handle did once land about 30 yds away. I guess you can't tape up everything.
I do agree with what you're saying, but it is a fundamental part of the IRC ethos that would have to change. Maybe they will have to change in some way, as simply driving away boats that are non-standard with punitive rating penalties is doing nothing to help racing at the top end and as can be seen in this thread, there's a lot of reluctance to race IRC at the bottom end.
H4B
Well-Known Member
Reluctance yes certainly, but mostly underpinned by lack of knowledge of the concept of rating vs handicapping at the cruiser end . And that lack of understanding can be demonstrated by skippers and crew who have been club racing for years IME!. There is also an element of laziness about form filling because on the scale of boat owning expenditure the cost of a certificate is neither here nor there!
Skippers at that level of racing want it all done for them , just turn up sail around a course and then wait for the results to be magically published by a club stalwart who is generally believed to favour one or other competitor and generally in league with the devil.
mrming
Well-Known Member
This is precisely the problem we have in our club racing. A lot of people don't like NHC, but can't be bothered to do the admin for IRC. The club used to run a local system with a fixed number, but since NHC came along they have been persuaded by the RYA to use that instead.
Sadly, regular, weekly cruiser racing is in decline in our area, and the introduction of NHC has not done anything to help.
H4B
Well-Known Member
The Start up IRC scheme for clubs is an ideal opportunity to get more boats rated with reduced fees for two years. We have a meeting this weekend to hopefully galvanise support for a combined club application. We might get a 25% take up from a fleet of 20. I predict that most will be happy to continue with NHC. We are proposing dual scoring for next year.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
This is probably rubbish, but if the intent was to keep to the ideal of dual role boat usage then rather than punitively handicap removal of furniture then maybe the rules should take note of sail materials so enabling those unable to afford two sail wardrobes to be competitive?
Perhaps rather strangely the saloon table on my boat (which is no racing machine) is removable leaving a steel hope rather like a bicycle stand!
Perhaps rather strangely the saloon table on my boat (which is no racing machine) is removable leaving a steel hope rather like a bicycle stand!
KREW2
Well-Known Member
It seems that if you want to race a racing boat then IRC is the only way to go.
If, however you want to race a cruising boat then NHC has to be better.
I have heard rumour that our new Z class captain will do dual scoring for the first year, then after that if the fleet does not go fully IRC he will give up the post.
If this is the case, I thought I may try and crew for someone else.
The trouble is, me pulling my boat out would reduce our tiny Monday fleet by about 15%. I talked to a few other skippers and they are not going to bother to go IRC.
I am willing to get a rating, if it means we can preserve the Monday fleet, but if it is to be reduced to 3/4 boats I shan't bother.
Maybe I should start a breakaway movement, but I don't know how to.
If, however you want to race a cruising boat then NHC has to be better.
I have heard rumour that our new Z class captain will do dual scoring for the first year, then after that if the fleet does not go fully IRC he will give up the post.
If this is the case, I thought I may try and crew for someone else.
The trouble is, me pulling my boat out would reduce our tiny Monday fleet by about 15%. I talked to a few other skippers and they are not going to bother to go IRC.
I am willing to get a rating, if it means we can preserve the Monday fleet, but if it is to be reduced to 3/4 boats I shan't bother.
Maybe I should start a breakaway movement, but I don't know how to.
H4B
Well-Known Member
If cruisers want to do all their racing in the same club against the same adversaries without having to do anything else but turn up, then NHC will work. Don't get excited about buying new sails or even practicing that much, because if you perform well it will get increasingly difficult for you continue to do so, likewise those that follow along at the back will see their tcc get more advantageous as the season progresses.
If you're one of those cruiser/racer owners who find that unacceptable and rather pit your well shod and prep'd boat against others from your own club and further a field then it's IRC regardless of whether you're a new carbon fibre tea tray or a 30 year old cruiser. If a club wants to cater for all it's membership and retain them , it's dual scoring, and it needs to be managed that way.
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lw395
Well-Known Member
There are other options.
Just because the RYA no longer publishes PY, nothing stops you using it.
Likewise, many clubs use their own rating system which may be a bit of a guess, or based on historic ratings of similar boats.
Some have been accused of treading a bit of a fine line from plagiarising IRC ratings....(allegedly).
H4B
Well-Known Member
PY for cruisers is gone, dead and forgotten. It was not being used properly, few clubs reported results back to RYA so they dumped it and in collaboration with RORC/IRC developed NHC primarily to serve club racing. It's still in development but is under funded and RYA appear reluctant to do much more with it. The tcc for both use similar nomenclature. ie. n.nnn.
The other system still going and an alternative is Byron, a sort of IRC lite in that it's a rating system and uses the same nomenclature as the old PY ie nnn
The fact that there are options serves to confuse clubs and competing boats crews and skippers more than necessary.
IRC is a business operation and wants to grow it, hence the push. Anyone know if it's run as a Sporting charity like a sailing club?
mrming
Well-Known Member
There's also VPRS.
It doesn't solve the admin problem but at £20 a cert for any boat it's considerably cheaper than IRC:
http://www.vprs.org
It doesn't solve the admin problem but at £20 a cert for any boat it's considerably cheaper than IRC:
http://www.vprs.org
H4B
Well-Known Member
Yes ok for within club racing but doesn't travel does it.