IRC racing

H4B said:
It is the absence of tight rating splits that is putting the aged cruiser racer fleet off getting an IRC rating.
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If you haven't got a few comparable cruisers, with comparable skill levels, commitment levels, boat prep levels and budgets, it does not matter what the yardstick scheme is.

Do you really have people who are wanting to race only held back by the rating schemes?
Or is it all an excuse?
You can only slice and dice a fleet of a dozen boats so many ways.
MABs sailed by people with no great talent will always be slow, but that should not stop them enjoying and improving.

Unfortunately, some club sailors who can be in the top few of an indifferent fleet are not very welcoming or encouraging to people 'below' them.
I've sailed in a range of fleets, its seem to me the better the quality of the top of the fleet, the more supportive they are to those of us who are only making up the numbers.

The only way rating splits make a difference on the water is at the start, where mere mortals benefit from not sharing the line with hotshots in faster boats.
 
lw395 said:
If you haven't got a few comparable cruisers, with comparable skill levels, commitment levels, boat prep levels and budgets, it does not matter what the yardstick scheme is.

Do you really have people who are wanting to race only held back by the rating schemes?
Or is it all an excuse?
You can only slice and dice a fleet of a dozen boats so many ways.
MABs sailed by people with no great talent will always be slow, but that should not stop them enjoying and improving.

Unfortunately, some club sailors who can be in the top few of an indifferent fleet are not very welcoming or encouraging to people 'below' them.
I've sailed in a range of fleets, its seem to me the better the quality of the top of the fleet, the more supportive they are to those of us who are only making up the numbers.

The only way rating splits make a difference on the water is at the start, where mere mortals benefit from not sharing the line with hotshots in faster boats.
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My comment was general rather than specific., but yes I think people who are not entirely comfortable at close quarters or have reluctant crew find all sorts of reasons not to race including the process of applying for a rating. That's , surely where NHC comes in with its turn up & go format. I haven't got a problem with it but it doesn't travel with the boat to open events.

In our club we cater for the majority and run under NHC reasonably successfully.

Quote 'The only way rating splits make a difference on the water is at the start, where mere mortals benefit from not sharing the line with hotshots in faster boats' Quote

Rating splits make a tremendous difference in amalgamated class starts. Courses are usually set for the fastest boats. Tidal gates, wind shifts etc always seem to affect the back of the fleet most.
 
H4B said:
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Rating splits make a tremendous difference in amalgamated class starts. Courses are usually set for the fastest boats. Tidal gates, wind shifts etc always seem to affect the back of the fleet most.
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Unless you get a different course, or fewer laps, or your own start, your rating only affects how your time is translated into a finishing position.
It doesn't change what happens on the water unless it puts you in a different race.
 
A few more questions.

I have spoken to a few other members and most like myself seem content to stay as they are NHC. So If I enter the RTIR this year how will my handicap be assessed?

The couple of folk I have spoken to who are thinking of going onto IRC seem to think that all cruising extras left on board carried can be allowed for, I don't think this is the case.
Another member said he wanted things like, new lead soundproofing around the engine bay, and extra batteries, along with a few other things to be taken into consideration.

The IRC generally use, to quote from their site "Designed weight, or derived from designed sailing displacement" As for things that are not readily removable who decides what it weighs or, do you have to have the boat weighed?
 
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KREW2 said:
A few more questions.

I have spoken to a few other members and most like myself seem content to stay as they are NHC. So If I enter the RTIR this year how will my handicap be assessed?

The couple of folk I have spoken to who are thinking of going onto IRC seem to think that all cruising extras left on board carried can be allowed for, I don't think this is the case.
Another member said he wanted things like, new lead soundproofing around the engine bay, and extra batteries, along with a few other things to be taken into consideration.

The IRC generally use, to quote from their site "Designed weight, or derived from designed sailing displacement" As for things that are not readily removable who decides what it weighs or, do you have to have the boat weighed?
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1) If you enter RTIR and you don't have a current IRC cert, you'll be given an ISC number (Island Sailing Club's own system) and will race in one of the ISC classes.

2) There is no way to allow for extra cruising gear aboard under the IRC system.

3) Unless you go for an endorsed certificate, RORC will use the design weight of your boat. If you go for an endorsed cert, a measurer has to come with a load cell and you will need to make a crane available. All batteries will have to be removed, but non removable things like the extra soundproofing would count towards the endorsed weight. Unless the owner has added a serious amount of weight to the boat in non-removable items, this would not be a worthwhile exercise.
 
mrming said:
1) If you enter RTIR and you don't have a current IRC cert, you'll be given an ISC number (Island Sailing Club's own system) and will race in one of the ISC classes.

2) There is no way to allow for extra cruising gear aboard under the IRC system.

3) Unless you go for an endorsed certificate, RORC will use the design weight of your boat. If you go for an endorsed cert, a measurer has to come with a load cell and you will need to make a crane available. All batteries will have to be removed, but non removable things like the extra soundproofing would count towards the endorsed weight. Unless the owner has added a serious amount of weight to the boat in non-removable items, this would not be a worthwhile exercise.
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Many thanks, that is how I read it.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

In a nutshell, in order to be competitive your boat must be as close to design weight as possible.
 
@Krew2: what you and your friends are asking, and with Mr Ming's very clear explanation, is yet more proof why IRC is not worthwhile for a cruising yacht. You simply can't carry anything you don't need, in order to be competitive.

Even to do well (or even just OK) in NHC and ISC for RTIR, I remove all the non-essential items such as pots, pans, crockery, books, spare warps, engine spares, tools, ... there is crates of stuff in the garage !
 
lw395 said:
Unless you get a different course, or fewer laps, or your own start, your rating only affects how your time is translated into a finishing position.
It doesn't change what happens on the water unless it puts you in a different race.
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A faster boat spends less time racing therefore less time to be affected by tide wind shifts etc than the slower boat. That is why class splits make a difference.

Races are 'most' fair when boats of similar tcc pitch against each other , as in class racing. Boats with wildly differing tcc - courses favour one end or other of the fleet.
 
H4B said:
Rating splits make a tremendous difference in amalgamated class starts. Courses are usually set for the fastest boats. Tidal gates, wind shifts etc always seem to affect the back of the fleet most.
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Depends very much on the fleet size. We split our fleet into three - IRC/NHC1/NHC2 and each fleets sails a different course in tidal waters. The NHC1/NHC2 split is at 0.900 which basically seems to seperate the fin keels from the bilgies and the over 28ft from the smaller. Even then, and particularly in NHC2, there are courses and weather conditions when some boats always do well or badly. For example a pal with a Sadler 29 bilge in NHC2 almost always wins when the wind is over 25kn but comes last or close to it if the wind is 10kn. And then there is tide - a spring tide of 3kn obviously has far more effect on a boat that goes to windward at 5kn than one which does 7kn.

The calibre of the crew will win out over a series but in one off races in tidal waters, its less certain. I think the point that some of the keen south coast racers are missing is that their fleets are more homogeneous than they are "in the sticks". The differences between Elan, First and Xyachts in the 35 ft boat size are relatively small. You dont get, as we get, one boat weighing in at twice the weight of another. And when boats are similar crew skill is a bigger factor. When boats do vary hugely, then the handicap and the conditions of the day become relatively more important.

On another subject I have tried quite hard to encourage non racers at our club to join in the racing. The biggest problem seems to be fear of " making a fool of themselves" but lots of people think their boat isnt suitable ( which is nonsense), say they cant get crew, and there is a lesser fear of damage plus doubts of their skill at boat handling at close quarters. No one has ever mentioned the IRC fee, probably because most dont know of its existance. There is a small groupm that will tuen out for special races like the pursuit race on new years day but not turn out for a series, crew usually being the issue.
 
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birdseye said:
On another subject I have tried quite hard to encourage non racers at our club to join in the racing. The biggest problem seems to be fear of " making a fool of themselves" but lots of people think their boat isnt suitable ( which is nonsense), say they cant get crew, and there is a lesser fear of damage plus doubts of their skill at boat handling at close quarters. No one has ever mentioned the IRC fee, probably because most dont know of its existance. There is a small groupm that will tuen out for special races like the pursuit race on new years day but not turn out for a series, crew usually being the issue.
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Same here, and many other clubs even the large ones.
 
birdseye said:
On another subject I have tried quite hard to encourage non racers at our club to join in the racing. The biggest problem seems to be fear of " making a fool of themselves" but lots of people think their boat isnt suitable ( which is nonsense), say they cant get crew, and there is a lesser fear of damage plus doubts of their skill at boat handling at close quarters. No one has ever mentioned the IRC fee, probably because most dont know of its existance. There is a small groupm that will tuen out for special races like the pursuit race on new years day but not turn out for a series, crew usually being the issue.
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Same locally and every other club I suspect. More the merrier surely.
 
BlueSkyNick said:
@Krew2: what you and your friends are asking, and with Mr Ming's very clear explanation, is yet more proof why IRC is not worthwhile for a cruising yacht. You simply can't carry anything you don't need, in order to be competitive.

Even to do well (or even just OK) in NHC and ISC for RTIR, I remove all the non-essential items such as pots, pans, crockery, books, spare warps, engine spares, tools, ... there is crates of stuff in the garage !
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If you race IRC at club level can you remove anchor and chain, or is it regarded as part of your safety equipment.
 
It's not IRC that sets the safety standards, IRC is just about the speed of the boat. Most racing will be under an ISAF category. From 4 (round the cans in daylight near to a harbour in warm weather) to 0 (Ocean racing in the southern ocean).

The RTI is a cat 4 race, so any club racing will be too, though I've never heard of a club running Monday night racing doing an inspection. Does occasionally happen at the big events, we were inspected at the IRC nationals a couple of years back, very thorough, picked us up on a couple of minor points relating to where things were stowed.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/OSR2014Mo423122013-[16070].pdf

So yes, you have to carry an anchor, just the one and it needs to be "suitable".

However, if you were to go down the route of an endorsed cert, the anchor would come off for the weighing. It would have to, to prevent games... Weigh in with a 30kg CQR and 100m of chain, then change it for an aluminium fortress and 50m of string... Sad, but it would happen.
 
flaming said:
It's not IRC that sets the safety standards, IRC is just about the speed of the boat. Most racing will be under an ISAF category. From 4 (round the cans in daylight near to a harbour in warm weather) to 0 (Ocean racing in the southern ocean).

The RTI is a cat 4 race, so any club racing will be too, though I've never heard of a club running Monday night racing doing an inspection. Does occasionally happen at the big events, we were inspected at the IRC nationals a couple of years back, very thorough, picked us up on a couple of minor points relating to where things were stowed.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/OSR2014Mo423122013-[16070].pdf

So yes, you have to carry an anchor, just the one and it needs to be "suitable".

However, if you were to go down the route of an endorsed cert, the anchor would come off for the weighing. It would have to, to prevent games... Weigh in with a 30kg CQR and 100m of chain, then change it for an aluminium fortress and 50m of string... Sad, but it would happen.
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Very informative, thank you. That explains why I could not find the info on the IRC site.

I fully understand why, when you have an endorsed cert you would want to do that. After all when you have just spent your life savings on a set of sails you don't want to come second.
I'm beginning to understand what the IRC chappy meant now when he said metaphorically, they turn the boat upside down before weighing. I assume for an endorsed cert spinnaker poles, sheets and guys etc will all come off.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, one of our members I'm told, who races in our NHC evening series has striped out heads and galley, even doors. I have just checked and he is not IRC rated, and I see no reason why he would want to be.
I have just checked his results from last year, and with the NHC system his handicap has risen as the season has gone on. This has resulted in a similar boat fully laden giving him a run for his money.
 
KREW2 said:
Very informative, thank you. That explains why I could not find the info on the IRC site.

I fully understand why, when you have an endorsed cert you would want to do that. After all when you have just spent your life savings on a set of sails you don't want to come second.
I'm beginning to understand what the IRC chappy meant now when he said metaphorically, they turn the boat upside down before weighing. I assume for an endorsed cert spinnaker poles, sheets and guys etc will all come off.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, one of our members I'm told, who races in our NHC evening series has striped out heads and galley, even doors. I have just checked and he is not IRC rated, and I see no reason why he would want to be.
I have just checked his results from last year, and with the NHC system his handicap has risen as the season has gone on. This has resulted in a similar boat fully laden giving him a run for his money.
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Absolutely, that's what NHC is supposed to do, it's supposed to rate "bring what you have" racing.

As an aside, if you strip out doors etc under IRC you have to declare it, and you are penalized heavily. A few years ago we took the door off to the forecabin because it got in the way of the sails, and even though we declared it as lashed down in one of the aft cabins our rating rose 5 points, which wasn't worth it, so we put it back on. And our rating dropped 6 points...! The point of this is to encourage genuine dual use boats - boats that will be at Cowes with a full crew one week and off to the channel islands with the family the next. I see what they're trying to do, but to my mind it doesn't really make any sense any more. There's too much time pressure on modern life for keen racers to do more than token cruising or vice versa. None of our regular fleet cruise. Being allowed to take parts of the interior off (forecabin door would be the first to go, snags every sailbag... Then the table, which was lifted into position from stowed for the first time in its life this year) would make the boat a lot easier to race without constantly snagging things and having to climb over things.
 
Anyone recently completed a new application for a boat with Standard hull data? How many hours did it take measuring sails and filling out form ?

Our club is considering the club start up package . Anybody else?
 
flaming said:
I see what they're trying to do, but to my mind it doesn't really make any sense any more. There's too much time pressure on modern life for keen racers to do more than token cruising or vice versa. None of our regular fleet cruise. .
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You are judging from the point of view of your own group of keen south coast racers. In my local area there are far more keen NHC racers than IRC racers. True many of them dont cruise either. They are NHC because the boat they can afford is an old cruiser with terylene ( dacron if you are a yank) sails. And if NHC adjustments are allowed to work they ensure really close racing irrespective of budget. Whats more you can take doors and tables off if you can be bothered - it wont help in the end.
 
howard easton said:
You are judging from the point of view of your own group of keen south coast racers. In my local area there are far more keen NHC racers than IRC racers. True many of them dont cruise either. They are NHC because the boat they can afford is an old cruiser with terylene ( dacron if you are a yank) sails. And if NHC adjustments are allowed to work they ensure really close racing irrespective of budget. Whats more you can take doors and tables off if you can be bothered - it wont help in the end.
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Think you're making my point for me though! My point is that IRC overly penalizes taking cruising gear out, that would actually make very little difference to the speed of the boat but prevents it from being damaged and makes the boat easier to sail. They do this because they wish to encourage dual use boats. But there aren't really any dual use boats, so let's move the game on and allow owners to configure their boat how they want, then weigh the boat in that configuration without the draconian penalties for removing furniture.
 
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