IRC racing

[Racecruiser]

For the life of me I have no idea how it works. All I know is it varies and is adjusted after each race.
Having just made a few inquiries it seems to me that maybe I should go down the IRC line. It is based on honesty, if you declare your weight as fully laden for cruising, and then strip out your boat it will be frowned upon.
If I have understood it right the certificate will also give two ratings one for not flying a spinnaker This will save me pestering our Z class captain. Apparently when you start a series if you declare that you will not fly a spinnaker it will have to apply for the whole series, which would suit me.
This means that when entering a one off passage race, where hoisting at speed is not of the essence I can fly it, even when short handed.
Before jumping in and signing up I will delve further.

My view is go the IRC route. As already pointed out there is no need to go to an endorsed rating (unless you want to) - endorsement means a RORC measurer will weigh the boat, take hull/rig measurements and measure sails (unless already approved sail-maker measured) as opposed to non-endorsed where the weight and hull measurements are determined by standard hull data for your class of boat (I'm sure will include Storm 33) the rating office keep on file and you can self-measure rig and sails.

Should all be fairer and you can elect non-spinnaker if you wish - as an example the rating for our Elan 295 in 2014 was 0.925 or if we had gone non-spinnaker would have been 0.915 (multiplied against elapsed time of course).

Just a point about weight - the standard hull data assumes all kit is off the boat so there is no option to declare a weight with cruisy kit on board. When weighing for endorsement the measurer will check there is no kit on board which means no ropes, fenders, sails but you can keep bunk cushions on. You lug it all off and lug it all back again - we've just done it and even the fire extinguishers had to come off.

Of course you'll need to adhere to safety/equipment regs for the relevant ISAF category but I imagine your current system will specify that too - certainly should do or the organisers would be found wanting.

More to see here and the rating office are helpful if you want to give them a call https://www.rorcrating.com/

 

[lw395]

I race my 33 foot Westerly Storm in the not so serious Monday series at our club. Sometimes there are only two of us as crew. I have asked our race committee to introduce a non spinnaker class, which would enable me to be a bit more competitive. Three years on and still no joy.
Last night we had a club meeting to try and convert our racers to IRC.
I am told that we may still race under the old system and the fleet will be divided. This brings another problem, as sometimes on a Monday evening eight would be maximum, but sometimes only four or five turn up.
My question is will IRC be beneficial for me, and the club as a whole, or is it likely to kill off the Monday fleet.

By making the series IRc, you are shutting the door to people with no rating.
OTOH, your racing will look better in terms of attracting boats which already have a rating.
Re the no kite option, it seems to be good for around 1% in IRC, how close are your results, will that make a difference?

A lot of clubs use 'club ratings' which rend to be 'Dave's best guess of IRC rating based on available data' .
It's best to make sure that they don't look too like IRC ratings, as that's freeloading on RORC's work, traditionally that's done by multiplying by a random factor and using out of date IRC data.

You may guess that I prefer one design racing, or at least racing a similar boat on the water.

 

[KREW2]

It will depend on your boat, but if I used my non-spin rating it would give me an extra 54 seconds an hour. I am only 23ft LOA so the difference will obviously be larger on your 33 footer.

That sounds good, and I think you are helping me make up my mind.
I was looking at some of my corrected times from last year. As the season went on we improved a little, and in some races I only lost out to those with spinnakers by a minute or two, in ninety minute races.
Incidentally the one race where I did manage to rustle up a full crew, including a spinnaker ace we won by 22 seconds.

 

[mrming]

That sounds good, and I think you are helping me make up my mind.
I was looking at some of my corrected times from last year. As the season went on we improved a little, and in some races I only lost out to those with spinnakers by a minute or two, in ninety minute races.
Incidentally the one race where I did manage to rustle up a full crew, including a spinnaker ace we won by 22 seconds.

The corrected times under NHC don't mean a lot in relation to IRC unfortunately.

In order to get a rough idea of the effect of the non spin rating, you could look at your (and your competitors) elapsed times, look up some IRC numbers for the boats involved and use the calculator linked earlier in this thread to compare the likely corrected times.

 

[KREW2]

By making the series IRc, you are shutting the door to people with no rating.
You may guess that I prefer one design racing, or at least racing a similar boat on the water.

The Westerly Storm is a one design as you may know, however I think I am the only member of a Weymouth yacht club with one.

Your first point is a concern to me, and I asked the question at the meeting. My concern was that there were few enough boats out on a Monday, and it would be a shame to deter boats from racing.
The reply was not in detail, but we were told that all handicaps will be catered for, and should I wish to remain on the old system I could still race.
I suppose I should ask if he intends to introduce a non spinnaker class, if so I would be happy to stay as I am.

 

[KREW2]

The corrected times under NHC don't mean a lot in relation to IRC unfortunately.

In order to get a rough idea of the effect of the non spin rating, you could look at your (and your competitors) elapsed times, look up some IRC numbers for the boats involved and use the calculator linked earlier in this thread to compare the likely corrected times.

Yes I understand now.
Next rainy day when I am stuck in that will be a good thing to do. As I said earlier I looked up the rating of a Westerly Storm from the RTIR results so that is a good base to work from.

 

[mrming]

The Westerly Storm is a one design as you may know, however I think I am the only member of a Weymouth yacht club with one.

Your first point is a concern to me, and I asked the question at the meeting. My concern was that there were few enough boats out on a Monday, and it would be a shame to deter boats from racing.
The reply was not in detail, but we were told that all handicaps will be catered for, and should I wish to remain on the old system I could still race.
I suppose I should ask if he intends to introduce a non spinnaker class, if so I would be happy to stay as I am.

This is the official line from the RYA, that where there is demand for IRC, races should be dual scored, with the whole class receiving NHC results, and those with certs also getting IRC results. The hope is that NHC will improve accessibility (low barrier to entry) and if racers get more serious they can move up to be being scored on IRC also.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

If your evening racing is for fun, and you want more entrants who are less experienced, you will kill it with IRC in my opinion.

In Lymington, between the two clubs we have about 60 boats who race together regularly. All the IRC boats are racing boats - i.e. they have invested in decent sails and carry zero extra kit to keep the weight down, and their racing is very competitive. There is about 20 of them. Leaving out the Folkboats who have their own start, and a few gaffers, we are left with about 20 boats who race in either two or three classes depending on the series. Most of them are cruiser-racers in that they are used for more than just racing.

Historically we have had a local handicap system, with ratings set by effectively by one very knowledgable person making a judgement.

In the Solent Circuit autumn series which I have just run, we introduced three NHC classes ranging from RS Elites to a 35ft trimaran. Over the 7 week series there were some clearly some quirky results on some days but at the end, it was still the better sailors who run the trophies which is fair. Like golf the better sailors are able to sail to their handicap more consistently than others who do very well one week and very badly the next.

NHC has its pitfalls, especially if a boat enters just one or two races in the series and wins, but I am keen on it because it is a 'managed system' with Sailwave software set up to deal with it, rather than the 'one man with a wet finger in the air' approach.

 

[Birdseye]

A well honed crew who've been together for 30 years win most races and you want to change to IRC to make it fairer? And by fairer you seem to mean the well honed crew not winning all the time?

Simply put, it is fair. The best crew are winning. They should win. I like IRC precisely because the best crew normally win. I thought it was NHC that changed the handicap to make it harder for people to keep winning?

Best crew or wealthiest crew? The problem he could have with IRC is that another otherwise identical boat not only unloads everything aalowable but goes off and buys expensive laminate sails. You with your dacron on a furler simply wont live with them. I have has experience of just this on the not infrequent occasions when we havent had enough boats to run an IRC race and the IRC boats have comeinot the old PY class on official RYA PY numbers. The result is that they have run away with it. IRC boats sailing on PY numbers were simply far faster on the wind and pointed higher.

If your enjoyment of racing is conditional on some bloke with a spreadsheet telling you that you've won, maybe you need to look at why you are doing it?

The whole purpose of racing is to try to beat the other boat and win. If you arent bothered about winning then best stay out of the race fleet and cruise. And thats really the issue. Does anyone like coming last of nearly so whatever they do?

I think the point that the keen racers on here are missing is that NHC is not for them. Its for the family cruiser who might, shock horror, be racing an old Moody bilge keeler with 10 year old dacron sails and all the accumulated junk of years on board. He doesnt necessarily want to have to get a groupd of 25 year old hot shots on board but races with his wife and 70 year olf father in law. Yet he wanbts to improve his sailing a bit and he wants to try. He doesnt want, as he would get with IRC, the boredom of always being last or the pressure to spend money maybe even changing for a less comfortable fin keel cruiser racer. That NHC allows just this is shown by the popularity of performance handicap racing. True we currently have the usual " I dont like change" reaction to NHC taking over from PY but the numbers sailing performance handicap racing compared to the declining numbers sailing IRC show what the average club sailor prefers. In short, the OPs club fleet is more likely to shrink than grow if they go all IRC. Fact, I'm afraid.

For the keen racers there really only is one answer. One make flkeets. If you want to prove your sailing skills it isnt about buying the boat that best sails to its IRC number and then throwing money at it. Its about buying something like a Sigma 33 or Contessa or Impala and racing others with the same boat.

 

[KREW2]

The whole purpose of racing is to try to beat the other boat and win. If you arent bothered about winning then best stay out of the race fleet and cruise. And thats really the issue. Does anyone like coming last of nearly so whatever they do?
.

That sort of sums it up.
Three years ago I started to race regularly on a Monday evening. Up until last summer it was just me and a friend, hence my request for a non spinnaker class, which has not been forthcoming. We didn't always come last as there were two or three others who never flew spinnakers.
For some reason I had a glut of people wanting come crewing this summer, albeit because of other commitments not every time. As I said this year I won my first race ever, we had full crew three without the aches and pains of age.
Our new Z class captain is keen to get everyone onto IRC, strengthening the case for me as I can declare a no spinnaker rating, on condition I don't fly it for the whole series. This would suit me because on one off passage races, providing I have three crew flying the spinnaker is doable.
Having said all that I would still prefer to sail with the old system and just have a non spinnaker class. Those that did crew for me last year have said they would like to come more often next year, so who knows. Last year it was lovely to take line honours a couple of times.

 

[flaming]

Best crew or wealthiest crew? The problem he could have with IRC is that another otherwise identical boat not only unloads everything aalowable but goes off and buys expensive laminate sails. You with your dacron on a furler simply wont live with them. I have has experience of just this on the not infrequent occasions when we havent had enough boats to run an IRC race and the IRC boats have comeinot the old PY class on official RYA PY numbers. The result is that they have run away with it. IRC boats sailing on PY numbers were simply far faster on the wind and pointed higher.

Pretty sure I was on record that I didn't think IRC was the right solution for Krew.

You are absolutely right that the best racing by a long shot is OD. But persuading enough people with the cash to buy the same boat is surprisingly difficult. I've lost count of the number of new boats in the last 10 years have been touted as "the next big Solent OD." Hasn't happened yet, it's still 109s and Sigmas in the size bracket I'm interested in.

That said IRC could work for Krew, if all of the boats in the fleet sail to the same level. By which I mean they all adopt the same sort of weight/sails philosophy. The minute one person goes out and buys a carbon main the fleet will die. Your problem with the IRC boats is not a problem with IRC it's just a problem with different ideas on how to go racing. After all, you don't put your boat on a diet, or buy it nice sails, or invite the local uni sailing club to crew because you want to go slower...

It's absolutely fine, and bloody well awesome, to have a fleet composed of family cruisers sailing as you describe. But the big problem is going to be when someone who has an intrinsic advantage (age, sails, type of boat etc) comes to play and cleans up it's going to put the existing fleet off. Under IRC there is nothing to stop this from happening, under other rating systems there can be as the handicap adjusts.

If Krew's fleet does go IRC I would suggest a clause in the SI's that bans things that the fleet do not want. Eg carbon/Kevlar sails or sailing without sufficient wine on board. That would serve to protect the ethos of the fleet and not have it escalate into an arms race. Throughout the history of yacht racing Arms races have killed fleets.

 

[lw395]

....



The whole purpose of racing is to try to beat the other boat and win. If you arent bothered about winning then best stay out of the race fleet and cruise. And thats really the issue. Does anyone like coming last of nearly so whatever they do?

A lot of the time I race in a fleet where there are some people way better than me, taking it way more seriously.
But I'm still having good racing against 3 or 4 boats who are in my league.
There are people generally a bit better than me, who I can keep up with on a good day and occasionally beat.
There is one boat, which in most weather thrashes me on handicap, but I have a good tactical race with him on the water.

I race a few dinghy open meetings, I like racing against people who are close to Olympic standard.
Just now and then, I learn a bit from being in the lower half of a quality fleet.

Other times I've raced and not cared at all about the results, because the race is just a framework for improving our skills and measuring that improvement against others. Getting out there and helping train up some new people is more rewarding than a walkover in a fleet where I can beat everyone.

Most sports, people seem to be able to find a lot more value in taking part and having personal goals.
You don't hear marathon runners whining about handicaps, yet loads of them have no chance of winning.
A lot of people in yacht racing seem to have a problem with that.
If you don't respect most of the people in the fleet, it's probably time to move on.

It's nice to win the odd race. But those are not always the races I enjoy most.

 

[KREW2]

It's just nice to know if you do your best, along with a bit of luck you have a chance.
My challenge is to be over the line before some of the slower boats, who do fly spinnakers.
I still have no chance of beating their corrected time, but it makes me feel good, and gives me something to strive for.

 

[Birdseye]

Having said all that I would still prefer to sail with the old system and just have a non spinnaker class. Those that did crew for me last year have said they would like to come more often next year, so who knows. Last year it was lovely to take line honours a couple of times.

This comment puzzles me. If you werenht sailing to IRC , then the old system you refer to would have been PY, and PY includes an allowance of +4% for no spinnaker. With that allowance you should have been able to compete with another Storm that was using a kite and you would not have needed a seperate "all white sails" class.

One of the weaknesses of the new NHC is that it doesnt allow for these adjustments, instead relying on a race to race adjustment that should take into account a worse performance caused by not using a kite as well as all other causes. And its vulnerable therefore to someone sailing most of a series without a kite and producing it to win the last race or two

What system were you racing on?

 

[KREW2]

This comment puzzles me. If you werenht sailing to IRC , then the old system you refer to would have been PY, and PY includes an allowance of +4% for no spinnaker. With that allowance you should have been able to compete with another Storm that was using a kite and you would not have needed a seperate "all white sails" class.

One of the weaknesses of the new NHC is that it doesnt allow for these adjustments, instead relying on a race to race adjustment that should take into account a worse performance caused by not using a kite as well as all other causes. And its vulnerable therefore to someone sailing most of a series without a kite and producing it to win the last race or two

What system were you racing on?

Before NHC I think we did use PY not sure though. My Handicap was 953.

 

[Birdseye]

With PY your handicap should have been either 955 0r 960 depending on prop plus 4 % for no kite since the standard rig for the Storm includes a kite. ie 993 or 998. Thats the starting point before adjusting race by race in a series. If they started you on 953 then you would have found it difficult - and they werent operating the handicap in line with what the RYA told them to do as follows:

4.1 Where a cruiser does not conform to Base Rig for its class or
type, allowances up to the following maxima may be applied on
a trial basis:
Boat with all headsails smaller than Base Rig +4%
Boat with no spinnaker +4%
Boat with mainsail other than Bermudan +2%
Boat with cruising chute and no spinnaker +2%
Boat with all spinnakers smaller than Base Rig +2%
4.2 Any variation from Base Rig not covered by the above list, such
as high tech sailcloth, may justify an allowance (excluding Crew
Skill Factor). If it is considered that the above allowances should
be different, clubs should decide on a suitable number and, if of
general application, inform the RYA.
5 LISTED CONFIGURATIONS AND ALLOWANCES
5.1 Listed engine/propeller configurations are identified as follows:
Inboard with feathering/folding propeller IBF
Inboard with fixed two-blade propeller IB2
Inboard with fixed three-blade propeller IB3
Any arrangement that allows the propeller to
be removed from the water, or no engine OB
5.2 Recommended trial allowances for different engine/propeller
configurations are as follows:
from to
OB IBF IB2 IB3
OB 0 +1% +2% +4%
IBF -1% 0 +1% +3%
IB2 -2% -1% 0 +2%
IB3 -4% -3% -2% 0
5.3 Listed keel configurations are identified as follows:
Central keel F
Drop keel adjustable while racing D
Twin bilge keels 2K
Central and twin bilge keels 3K
5.4 Recommended trial allowances for different keel configurations
are as follows:
5.5 In some cases the same class of cruiser will have more than one
published Number relating to different configurations of
engine/propeller and/or keel. In such cases the published Number
should be used in preference to the use of allowances.
5.6 For boats other than cruisers, the above allowances may not be
applicable or suitable. For a dinghy without a symmetric spinnaker,

Lots of clubs used to run PY in their own way - one of my clubs used to run it as a fixed handicap ie they didnt adjust race to race

 

[KREW2]

Many thanks for that.
I have been on 953 since the day I started racing at our club, four years ago.
Everybody said it was wrong, that's why I asked if i was being rated for no spinnaker. I was told they could not do that because they did not have a non spinnaker class.
As I have said before I asked why not create one I know it can be done because RDYC do it, but nothing was.
And they wonder why the racing fleet is getting thin on the ground when no one can be bothered.
My son sometimes comes out with me, after a race where we thought we had not done too bad he was shocked to find we had come last.
He said...... "Dad we could have motored all the way round, and still not stood a chance."

I can now see why people on here think OD is the only true and fair way to race.

If you are going to have a handicap system it has to be as correct as possible.
Just assigning a number to a boat and not bothering to check and monitor it is not the way to go.
Too late now though as the PY system has been dropped, and it seems to me that the only way I can get a just handicap is through the NHC system, cos if the powers that be will not do anything the computer will.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

.... cos if the powers that be will not do anything the computer will.

Nail hit well and truly on the head.
QED.

 

[Goldie]

This is the official line from the RYA, that where there is demand for IRC, races should be dual scored, with the whole class receiving NHC results, and those with certs also getting IRC results. The hope is that NHC will improve accessibility (low barrier to entry) and if racers get more serious they can move up to be being scored on IRC also.

I sail a mid week series with a club that does just that (I crew on a well sailed 40 year old GRP cruiser rated under NHC and without spinnaker). In practice, it means that the IRC boats have twice as many chances at finishing in the silverware but I fail to understand how a boat that has sailed well enough to win under one system, might only get 4th in the other. I guess the performance element of NHC is responsible for that but it does seem to make a mockery of the results. We race for fun, but anyone entering a dual scored event with competitive aspirations is (IMHO) likely to be discouraged rather than move 'up' to IRC.

 

[KREW2]

There are those who say whinging about your handicap is sour grapes, well maybe so.
In that case just have a mixed fleet without any handicap system and see how long it will last.
Those that practice hard, strip down their vessels, want to spend oodles on sails, dry out every month to clean the bottom seem to think they have a right to win, and maybe they do,
but I say if that's the case go and do it professionally.
Having read so many good informative views from both sides on here my conclusion is this.
The IRC system appears to be bordering on the pure racer.
The NHC system can, if done properly make racing fun for all.