IRC racing

[KREW2]

I race my 33 foot Westerly Storm in the not so serious Monday series at our club. Sometimes there are only two of us as crew. I have asked our race committee to introduce a non spinnaker class, which would enable me to be a bit more competitive. Three years on and still no joy.
Last night we had a club meeting to try and convert our racers to IRC.
I am told that we may still race under the old system and the fleet will be divided. This brings another problem, as sometimes on a Monday evening eight would be maximum, but sometimes only four or five turn up.
My question is will IRC be beneficial for me, and the club as a whole, or is it likely to kill off the Monday fleet.

 

[flaming]

It doesn't sound ideal for you to be honest, but I do think the main disadvantage will be cost. If you can accept that, and everyone does it, then it shouldn't really change the situation too much and does come with one nice benefit for you. With IRC you get a non-spin number that you could choose to sail off. So you could compete against everyone with a handicap that actually takes account of the fact you're not flying a kite.

Other disadvantage will be that getting a rating is not as simple, so harder for a boat to decide to start racing. Another barrier to participation.

 

[mrming]

Two common myths about IRC that I'd like to refute:

1) It's expensive.

My cert was about 70ish quid. It'll be a little bit more for your boat as I think they charge by length, but not significantly so. If you race a yacht this is not much in the grand scheme of the ruinous expenses involved.

2) It's difficult to get a cert.

An "unendorsed" cert (perfectly suitable for club racing) is easy to get. You simply input a bunch of measurements into the RORC's spreadsheet, and a short while later they send you your cert. Your sailmaker will usually have all the pertinent sail measurements, and if you have a production boat RORC may even have all the hull measurements already. If not they are very simple and you and a friend can get them with a tape measure in a few minutes.

Compared to the comical new NHC system, the racing is a lot fairer and well worth the small amount of effort involved.

 

[Birdseye]

I race my 33 foot Westerly Storm in the not so serious Monday series at our club. Sometimes there are only two of us as crew. I have asked our race committee to introduce a non spinnaker class, which would enable me to be a bit more competitive. Three years on and still no joy.
Last night we had a club meeting to try and convert our racers to IRC.
I am told that we may still race under the old system and the fleet will be divided. This brings another problem, as sometimes on a Monday evening eight would be maximum, but sometimes only four or five turn up.
My question is will IRC be beneficial for me, and the club as a whole, or is it likely to kill off the Monday fleet.

Do you have any "serious "race boats in the fleet? Where is the pressure coming from to convert to IRC?

If people want a fixed handicap then there is nothing to stop you simply using the NHC numbers ( which are quite accurate for fin keel boats of your sort - much less so for bilge keelers etc) or for that matter using IRC numbers without actually getting a certificate. Unlkess the racing is serious there is no point in paying £70 pa just to get a number to race against.

I have been racing this autumn in a series with one third of the 36 fleet on IRC, the rest of NHC and split slow / fast. Its the first time I have raced NHC and for the boats in the fast fleet, boats like yours, it has worked well. Performances against handicaps have been quite consistent the only problem being that new boats entering an already established fleet are bandits until the numbers adjust. Once adjusted the racing gets ever closer with races decided by as little as 2 seconds on corrected times.

NHC is probably the best solution for you because splitting 4 or 5 boats into two fleets is no fun for anyone. But since it is club racing you can even invent your own handicap system is you want. There are enough of them about.

Compared to the comical new NHC system, the racing is a lot fairer and well worth the small amount of effort involved.

I disagree. The problem with IRC is that you can buy a win. The competition isnt just on the water - the other Storm he is racing against can go off and buy a new set of racing laminates, fair the keel etc and the IRC number wont alter. NHC and PY before it eventually gets every boat and crew onto the same basis and its the slight improvem,ent that wins. True there is the same buy a win option but it isnt worth while because the advantage gets cancelled out.

I'll give you another example. Ours is a cruising boat. It has loads of stuff in the lockers, two anchors , 50 metres of chain each etc and this series I could not be bothered to leave the anchors and chain at home, empty tanks , take of books etc. We came second in the series because the handicaps adjusted to the extra weight we were carrying.

 

[mrming]

There's also VPRS - measurement / TCC based like IRC but much cheaper at around £20 a cert:

http://www.vprs.org

 

[mrming]

I'll give you another example. Ours is a cruising boat. It has loads of stuff in the lockers, two anchors , 50 metres of chain each etc and this series I could not be bothered to leave the anchors and chain at home, empty tanks , take of books etc. We came second in the series because the handicaps adjusted to the extra weight we were carrying.

Part of the pleasure of racing for me is prepping and tuning the boat. I don't see that as "buying a win". We race on a very modest budget and a lot of hard graft goes into making sure the boat is fast. If NHC cancels out that reward then that reduces some of the enjoyment for me I'm afraid.

 

[lpdsn]

The competition isnt just on the water - the other Storm he is racing against can go off and buy a new set of racing laminates, fair the keel etc and the IRC number wont alter.

The sails won't change the IRC handicap, but fairing the keel of a production boat will if you take it beyond what is expected of it as a production boat. Been there, done that, got the extra points.

 

[KREW2]

Thanks to all for the input.

Firstly the fee for me is not an issue.
The pressure is coming from our new Z class captain, who organised a senior member of the IRC to give us a talk. The reason for this is he thinks it will benefit us all to be IRC rated, and make it fairer.

No serious boats in the Monday fleet, it is just a fun race series. The races on a Wednesday are better supported. They have two fleets fast, and slower keel boats. and as I am now full retired I am hoping to do a bit of racing on a Wednesday evening.

The new system NHC did seem to disadvantage some of the boats, and they where getting whingy. This is understandable as some are a honed crew who have been sailing together for 30 years.
This leaves me, and a few others who have started racing later in life just making up the numbers. The results are pretty well predictable if six boats turn up you can guess the who will be in the first three and who will be in the last three. So much so that we almost look at coming fourth as a win for us.
Now I know I am not as good at racing as some of the others, and not standing a chance does dampen the enthusiasm.

I can also accept the point that hard work should pay dividends, but after all we are all amateurs not pro's

 

[flaming]

Thanks to all for the input.

Firstly the fee for me is not an issue.
The pressure is coming from our new Z class captain, who organised a senior member of the IRC to give us a talk. The reason for this is he thinks it will benefit us all to be IRC rated, and make it fairer.

No serious boats in the Monday fleet, it is just a fun race series. The races on a Wednesday are better supported. They have two fleets fast, and slower keel boats. and as I am now full retired I am hoping to do a bit of racing on a Wednesday evening.

The new system NHC did seem to disadvantage some of the boats, and they where getting whingy. This is understandable as some are a honed crew who have been sailing together for 30 years.
This leaves me, and a few others who have started racing later in life just making up the numbers. The results are pretty well predictable if six boats turn up you can guess the who will be in the first three and who will be in the last three. So much so that we almost look at coming fourth as a win for us.
Now I know I am not as good at racing as some of the others, and not standing a chance does dampen the enthusiasm.

I can also accept the point that hard work should pay dividends, but after all we are all amateurs not pro's

A well honed crew who've been together for 30 years win most races and you want to change to IRC to make it fairer? And by fairer you seem to mean the well honed crew not winning all the time?

Simply put, it is fair. The best crew are winning. They should win. I like IRC precisely because the best crew normally win. I thought it was NHC that changed the handicap to make it harder for people to keep winning?

 

[lpdsn]

This leaves me, and a few others who have started racing later in life just making up the numbers. The results are pretty well predictable if six boats turn up you can guess the who will be in the first three and who will be in the last three. So much so that we almost look at coming fourth as a win for us.

Most fleets have a pecking order that is accepted by those lower down. It's amazing how much better you do when you don't accept it and try to break out. Work to learn. Study what they do. Compare their sail trim to yours. Look at their tactics. You'll often be following them, but don't do so blindly - sometimes they'll make a tactical error and you can pounce. Motivate your crew to strive to keep up with them on the first beat - a crew that think they're doing well will perform a lot better than one that thinks they have no chance. Learn the rules well so that they can't intimidate you.

 

[KREW2]

A well honed crew who've been together for 30 years win most races and you want to change to IRC to make it fairer? And by fairer you seem to mean the well honed crew not winning all the time?

Simply put, it is fair. The best crew are winning. They should win. I like IRC precisely because the best crew normally win. I thought it was NHC that changed the handicap to make it harder for people to keep winning?

I get your point and, I have a choice to race or not to race.
As I said the fleet is getting smaller and newcomers are getting thin on the ground, and now way do I begrudge them winning.
I have had moderate success in some passage races, but going round the cans in my 33 footer gives me no chance, especially with only 2 or three on board.
I go out because I love an evening sail, and racing gives it a purpose.
The honed crew I refer to are a lovely bunch of guys, and as you can imaging not youngsters. However they soon started to complain about the handicap of a new 24 foot Etap that came on the scene and started to win a few races.
I used to play a lot of golf and practiced hard that did not always guarantee a win tho with the handicap system. This is the beauty if the golfing handicap system a 10 handicapper can go out and play a 20 handicapper and still have a tight game.

 

[lw395]

If your enjoyment of racing is conditional on some bloke with a spreadsheet telling you that you've won, maybe you need to look at why you are doing it?

 

[KREW2]

If your enjoyment of racing is conditional on some bloke with a spreadsheet telling you that you've won, maybe you need to look at why you are doing it?

If you read the above post an inwardly digest, I think line four will answer your query.

However getting back to the origin of my post.
My gripe was with our club for not introducing a non spinnaker class. I realise that my boat, a fully laden cruiser, and its handicap is not suited for sailing short courses round the cans, short handed.
What I want to know is will an IRC rating help make us more competitive.

 

[mrming]

If you read the above post an inwardly digest, I think line four will answer your query.

However getting back to the origin of my post.
My gripe was with our club for not introducing a non spinnaker class. I realise that my boat, a fully laden cruiser, and its handicap is not suited for sailing short courses round the cans, short handed.
What I want to know is will an IRC rating help make us more competitive.

Can you describe the handicap system you're using at the moment? That way we can compare it with IRC and suggest what the likely differences might be.

 

[Kerenza]

I use this little converter to demoralise myself,

http://www.petestack.com/sailing/apps/corrected.php

Its quite interesting to see the different results.
My boat is 787 PY and 1063 IRC.

Last regatta in NHC I ended with 1065 after starting with 1083.

M

 

[KREW2]

Can you describe the handicap system you're using at the moment? That way we can compare it with IRC and suggest what the likely differences might be.

For the life of me I have no idea how it works. All I know is it varies and is adjusted after each race.
Having just made a few inquiries it seems to me that maybe I should go down the IRC line. It is based on honesty, if you declare your weight as fully laden for cruising, and then strip out your boat it will be frowned upon.
If I have understood it right the certificate will also give two ratings one for not flying a spinnaker This will save me pestering our Z class captain. Apparently when you start a series if you declare that you will not fly a spinnaker it will have to apply for the whole series, which would suit me.
This means that when entering a one off passage race, where hoisting at speed is not of the essence I can fly it, even when short handed.
Before jumping in and signing up I will delve further.

 

[KREW2]

I use this little converter to demoralise myself,

http://www.petestack.com/sailing/apps/corrected.php

Its quite interesting to see the different results.
My boat is 787 PY and 1063 IRC.

Last regatta in NHC I ended with 1065 after starting with 1083.

M

Thanks for that I will have a more in depth play latter on.
I went on the RTIR result site and found the IRC rating for a similar boat.

I have just looked at last summers performance. My NHC started at 932, and ended on 891. I have no idea of what that means, so I will try and learn

 

[mrming]

For the life of me I have no idea how it works. All I know is it varies and is adjusted after each race.
Having just made a few inquiries it seems to me that maybe I should go down the IRC line. It is based on honesty, if you declare your weight as fully laden for cruising, and then strip out your boat it will be frowned upon.
If I have understood it right the certificate will also give two ratings one for not flying a spinnaker This will save me pestering our Z class captain. Apparently when you start a series if you declare that you will not fly a spinnaker it will have to apply for the whole series, which would suit me.
This means that when entering a one off passage race, where hoisting at speed is not of the essence I can fly it, even when short handed.
Before jumping in and signing up I will delve further.

It sounds like NHC which is the RYA's new-ish performance based system which rewards improvement over time.

Using IRC in comparison will mean you get a non-spin number on your cert (as you've correctly understood).

You'll all race off fixed TCCs with no adjustment race by race.

The good people with the well prepared boats will usually win, but that seems logical enough to me.

 

[KREW2]

It sounds like NHC which is the RYA's new-ish performance based system which rewards improvement over time.

Using IRC in comparison will mean you get a non-spin number on your cert (as you've correctly understood).

You'll all race off fixed TCCs with no adjustment race by race.

The good people with the well prepared boats will usually win, but that seems logical enough to me.

That's fine, I am a relative novice to racing, only 4 seasons. My very first race was a passage race to Lulworth Cove. The lady who enticed me to try it asked if would I be flying a spinnaker. With just my wife and a friend as crew I said no, okay she says, fly a yellow flag and you will be entered in the non spinnaker class. I have to say conditions favoured us, it was gusting 25 knots, and we managed third place out of a fleet of I think fourteen.
With our present system I can occasionally do well to the windward mark, and if the next mark is a broad reach even better. Then the proverbial hits the fan when we turn to go down wind and get left behind. I hasten to add this does not just apply to me, but also to the other two or three who do not fly spinnakers. I make my own challenge by just trying to beat the other tail enders.

 

[mrming]

It will depend on your boat, but if I used my non-spin rating it would give me an extra 54 seconds an hour. I am only 23ft LOA so the difference will obviously be larger on your 33 footer.