Crabman
Well-Known Member
I know , do bumps work, no , ask the designers ,there responsible .
IoR hulls versus modern IRC derived hulls
- Thread starter Judders
- Start date
I know , do bumps work, no , ask the designers ,there responsible .
chewi
Well-Known Member
hassle has nothing to do with sailing performance.
You may not prefer IOR and thats your privilege, but that's not the subject under discussion!
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
It's the stern wave that comes up higher than deck level.
I think it's wrong to try and attribute handling characteristics to 'the IOR'. It was a development rule and all sorts of shapes were designed in an attempt to optimise performance and - sometimes - to fool the rule. I sailed two boats regularly under IOR and they couldn't have been more different. The S&S Swan had a pinched-in stern, and would roll downwind in any wave train. You had to damp the rolls by spinnaker trimming. If you got it wrong, the third roll would be followed by a broach. The Steven Jones half-tonner had a broad stern, and was a doddle downwind, albeit you had to crowd as many crew as possible onto the windward quarter to stop it trying to submarine.
chewi
Well-Known Member
I am confused.
Is that a question or a statement?
My keels are quite distinct from my waterline, and I doubt they grow much in any circumstances
E39mad
Well-Known Member
The plume of water kicked up behind the yacht's stern down wind in medium to strong conditions - apologies to Ken typed imbetween trying to find a picture (unsuccessfully!)
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chewi
Well-Known Member
thankyou, a straight answer!
Crabman
Well-Known Member
Was the demise of IOR due to spiriling costs?
chewi
Well-Known Member
not sailing performance then? or perhaps too much hassle?
Crabman
Well-Known Member
Here we go, are you trying to say that racing a ton cup boat and getting it all together in the 70's and 80's was not hassle ? Get the certificate back and it was wrong then you had to get it re-measured and inclined not hassle? OK I will go and get one built ,oh I forgot 1/2 tonner then was 250k should be cheaper now.
chewi
Well-Known Member
Don't understand.
rating rules inc IOR are changed to remove racing inequalities and to avoid racing extremities from creating unseaworthy boats.
Production costs surely have little to do with it?
E39mad
Well-Known Member
Partly imho
Also partly because fully fitted out production boats costing half as much could beat them around a race course towards the late 1980's or owners could by faster one off racing yachts (anyone remember Wavetrain) without the design restrictions that ultimately made IOR boats slow.
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Crabman
Well-Known Member
Go and own and race a 1/2 tonner round Europe , then you will understand. Seaworthy ness was an issue offshore on the offshore races .That was down to failure of materials and crew not design of the hull. You were only allowed 5 crew on a 1/2 tonner. Go do that today flat out on a RORC channel race on a 1/2 tonner. Mast failures were caused by crew getting it wrong on the runners, do not forget mast technology was in its early days . The leader for this was Boyce and Allen .If a mast could not be held in column upwind the mast was removed and plates riveted to the sides where it was needed. The boats of today owe a lot to IOR boats through there mistakes and good points. Racing a ton boat offshore was hard.
So Chewi what IOR boats did you sail on in the 70's and 80's?
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Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
It did become an arms race, with last year's boats being grandadded by next year's. The Admiral's cup was a good example, sailed every two years with three-boat teams. Rarely did the previous team boats get picked for the next series. That's why, for example the Aisher's boats (called Yeoman) got up to about Yeoman 23 before they called it a day and bought a Sigma 38.
Judders
Well-Known Member
Ah but how much of that is he crews Ed? Elaine and Flair are two of the best boats in the Solent upwind but everybody knows that they are also two of the best sailed. It's no coincidence that they are both Elans either, three cuts above a 40.7 and I would summise that both boats usually beat most things.
The RORC yacht of the year was an old Nic33 a couple of years ago. In amateaur offshore classes, IOR boats could almost be said to dominate. in JOG its Scarlet Oyster, Old Mother Gun, Moon Dog and Longue Pierre who keep up with and beat the Xs.
Is this because they're better boat or better sailed? Or is it the age allowance in IRC?
Also there was an Impala 1 & 2 in class four of the Winter Series.
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Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Impalas weren't designed to rate under IOR, but were one of several new classes selected in 1977 as one designs by the Ofshore One Design Council, as a cheaper alternative to IOR racing. The others were the OOD34 and the 101 (which pretty much disappeared without trace). Then along came the Sigma range, which were outside the one-design competition, but were hugely successful.
E39mad
Well-Known Member
Scarlet Oyster is a Lightwave 48 - Carl Schumacher designed downwind flyer not designed to IOR constraints. IIRC Old Mother Gun is a lovely one off Humphreys also with no IOR constraints. Are the others not a Dehler 38 and Laser 28? If so again none IOR designs!
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flaming
Well-Known Member
Very kind of you to say so! But it's not just the Elans. The first 35s are wickedly quick upwind. No Chance - perhaps the most innapropriately named boat out there - was the only boat in our class to beat us to the needles in the RTI this year. There wasn't a Sigma in sight! And, believe it or not, the Bavaria Match 38 is probably the best upwind cruiser racer in this size range.
Offshore you get reaching as well as beating and running. Which is where the advantages of a low centre of gravity, relatively light weight and a high aspect rig are least important.
Glad you mentioned Longue Pierre - there's a great case in point. Couple of years ago the owner and I did the JOG Nab tower race doublehanded for a bit of a laugh. It was blowing 25-30 and a run to the Nab. We sat 3 foot off Longue Pierre's stern on the way to the forts, having a nice cup of coffee and getting towed along in their quater wave with main and jib only whilst they worked their socks off with a kite up. Wish I'd had a camera. Then after the forts we had a better angle for flying a kite 2 up. Wasn't the smoothest kite run ever.... And we were well behind Longue Pierre at the Nab, with a beat to the finish in 25kts to come. Despite not having any weight on the rail we beat them home by enough to beat them on handicap.
IRC boats are faster upwind.
Crabman
Well-Known Member
And there you have it, handicap. One design please ,thank you ,every time .
flaming
Well-Known Member
No arguments there.
Only OD game in the Solent at this size is the J109 though. Great boat, but not for everyone.
The argument was that IOR derived hulls are faster upwind that IRC hulls. Which has not been my experience.
Crabman
Well-Known Member
I can not see that IOR hulls are faster than IRC, there old designs. With IOR the water has further to travel with all the bumps making them slower . As to OD sailing ,cheap flight to the med ,race , band b ,then home , no hastle and good sailing .
