IOR for Time on Time racing

[Judders]

We see a lot of nostalgia about IOR as well as a lot of love for the boats and the speed at which design developed. I get the latter and read a lot about how the fleets were bigger and how offshore racing was stronger as a result. I've read that IRC is killing fleet sizes. Now as a some time OD sailor I absolutely get that the level rating competitions were attractive for thems that could afford it but I don't really see how the Time on Time racing was any better than IRC?

There are counter arguments that fleet sizes were due to external factors and nothing to do with handicapping.

As someone who only came to sailing in 2003 I'd be fascinated to learn more and what we can learn from those bigger fleets in days of yore...

 

[savageseadog]

This thread would have been better on the racing forum. IOR was before my time. I understand that optimised IOR designs weren't particularly good designs all round. My view on the recent decline in fleets is that all sorts of socio-economic issues have crept in. IRC does have issues and chequebook sailing is the norm now.

 

[flaming]

IRC is Time on Time, the alternative is Time on Distance (as loved by the Americans). So you have a rating in seconds per mile. So if you rate 10s per mile faster than me, and the race is 6 miles, then you must beat me by more than a minute. Has the advantage that it's much easier to work out on the water if you've won when the times are close, but has the disadvantage that it's all sorts of weird when the wind is not consistent.

The link between IRC and fleet numbers is interesting, and not simple. For what it's worth I think a big reset is due, and one that takes us away from the concept of the cruiser racer.

 

[lpdsn]

Now as a some time OD sailor I absolutely get that the level rating competitions were attractive for thems that could afford it but I don't really see how the Time on Time racing was any better than IRC?

I raced on a half-tonner for a while and competed in the revitalised Half-Ton Classic Cup. It was good competitive racing, but one thing was very clear which was that nominally level rated IOR boats were not equal and the results under IRC were generally more realistic.

So it isn't really like OD racing even though it pretended to be in its original form - one of the reasons I guess that owners spent a fortune on a new boat each year and the IOR system eventually died.

 

[lpdsn]

For what it's worth I think a big reset is due, and one that takes us away from the concept of the cruiser racer.

Trouble is IRM was a failure. I can't see whatever replaces IRC ignoring cruiser racers as they'd still represent a significant proportion of boats racing and it would just become too exclusive to be sustainable.

 

[lw395]

IRC is Time on Time, the alternative is Time on Distance (as loved by the Americans). So you have a rating in seconds per mile. So if you rate 10s per mile faster than me, and the race is 6 miles, then you must beat me by more than a minute. Has the advantage that it's much easier to work out on the water if you've won when the times are close, but has the disadvantage that it's all sorts of weird when the wind is not consistent.

The link between IRC and fleet numbers is interesting, and not simple. For what it's worth I think a big reset is due, and one that takes us away from the concept of the cruiser racer.

CHS was created for cruiser racers, running alongside the 'serious racers' in IOR.
People dumped IOR in favour of less extreme CHS boats.
Eventually IOR more or less died.

If you want to think about inshore ratings that aren't intended for cruiser racers, what happened to the sportboat rule?

Maybe there just aren't that many people who want to do dinghy style w/l racing at offshore prices?

 

[flaming]

Trouble is IRM was a failure. I can't see whatever replaces IRC ignoring cruiser racers as they'd still represent a significant proportion of boats racing and it would just become too exclusive to be sustainable.

We went through this on a thread in racing land, but will they? There aren't any being built now... Only Dehler are even trying. And our class in the winter series had 2 boats that you'd call CR's, us and 1 First 35. Neither of which you can replace like for like anymore. And some J109s, which are a separate subject. And also only being built to special order.

Our class at Cowes last year - top 4 certainly are CR in name only... They're just race boats that are heavier than they need to be.

CR fleets are dying, despite all the things that RORC etc have done to protect them from Race boats. At what point do we actually admit that the days of large numbers of people wanting to cruise the same boat they race are over and set the designers free making boats that are better to race?

 

[flaming]

If you want to think about inshore ratings that aren't intended for cruiser racers, what happened to the sportboat rule?

Victim of the critical mass problem. In that whilst they waited for a fleet to form the sportsboats were just getting hammered under IRC. So everyone was looking at them going "when they get a fleet I'll buy one" So of course they never did. It's the same story for just about every "Hot new OD" that has ever appeared on the Solent.

 

[Seajet]

I would have thought the concept of the cruiser racer - and the wonderful JOG ethos - would be a better idea than ever now in relatively short financed times - for overall keen sailor types wanting to sail and cruise, as a boat for each gets kind of expensive !

I think the concentration on ' pure ' racing designs such as Flaming enjoys ( and I'm not knocking it Flaming, just different to me ) largely reflects societal changes; cash rich time poor so have a blast on a racing job then back to the office.

I can't help being unsurprised when such boats mention crew problems, as it's difficult enough to get one steady crew for a racing dinghy ( which to me will always be the ultimate seat of the pants sensation in performance sailing ) - let alone organising a spreadsheetful of regulars then possibles every time.

There are a lot of ' relatively time rich, cash poor ' types like me who enjoy a responsive rewarding boat but still want to go places on holiday, a lot of such boats I suspect spend most of the time cruising then go for the RTIR, which is a bit of a shame, whenever SWMBO cries off, a race around the Nab or similar with the lads ( or ladies ) offers versatile boats and crews a blast if they feel like it.

And I tend to agree with some, IOR happened in a golden age for all sailing, but having owned an IOR derived boat - and looking at 1979 - I'm not at all sure it was a golden design period.

 

[flaming]

I would have thought the concept of the cruiser racer - and the wonderful JOG ethos - would be a better idea than ever now in relatively short financed times - for overall keen sailor types wanting to sail and cruise, as a boat for each gets kind of expensive !

The point is that boats for that are simply not being made any more, if you disagree point me to the websites, I'd love to see them!

Yes there are plenty of second hand suitable boats around, but if they stop getting made then eventually the supply will dry up. And then there's the additional point that to be competitive with the "Cruiser racers" that are really just heavy race boats (JPK, Archambault, Mat, Kerr, Corby etc) you cannot leave nice cruising things like roller furling, or lazyjacks or any number of other things that cruisers of today want. You have to be stripped back, you have to have things like inhaulers, you need fancy sails, you need a selection of kites. And then you don't have a cruising boat. You have a race boat with a cabin. To change the Elan from race mode to delivery mode takes me the best part of a day. And that still doesn't have things like a sprayhood, roller furling, sliders on the main, anchor in the bow locker (let alone actually having a bow roller), etc. To actually change the boat to a point where you'd go cross channel on a family cruise would take far too long. For a start you'd have to change the forestay or put up with luff groove jibs. Who cruises with luff groove jibs these days?

So nobody does... I've asked the question before, and I think there was 1 example people could name of someone who actually races IRC relatively seriously and cruises the same boat. It just doesn't happen any more. Most racers either don't cruise or they jump on another boat - often a boat belonging to one of their race crew, or they charter somewhere hot.

It's not that I especially want to sail the latest pocket rocket. I wouldn't say no, but really I'm not all that fussed. I just want large fleets and good competition, and when I see them dwindling I cannot help but wonder if there's another way of doing things that might reverse the trend.

 

[Seajet]

I take your point about boats being made, though that's a problem for pure cruising boats too I think.

Unless going nuts and considering hull stresses etc I don't see that much bother with stripping down for racing as you mention - yes I'd cruise with a luff foil, on larger boats than my 22 - I just can't help thinking race only yachts at all but the most exoteric is a shame and a loss of versatility - I suppose some people get a kick out of ' we're a real mean machine ' where I'd be thinking ' we're a really restricted machine '.

I used to watch car races at Brands Hatch etc now and again years ago, I remember watching an endurance race with Porsche 917 Le Mans jobs etc, all very impressive on the grid, all deadly serious, and all incredibly tedious as soon as they got going.

It was eventually followed by a race by the MG Owners Club - a fraction of the speed, sliding all over the place, when two cars slid off next to each other the owners got out and shook hands - it was by far the most enjoyable race I've ever seen, and I suspect the drivers were enjoying themselves a lot more than the 917 blokes.

That's how I see things, and there are lots of good similar boat types out there, grp doesn't wear out, new sails are available - but the shape it's in this season may become less trendy.

 

[lw395]

So race under a different rule.
Where is the queue of people wanting to race small pure racers?
Who are all these people who would stump up the cash for a 35ft high performance dayboat?
What are they racing now?
I just don't think the punters exist.
Are there actually enough of the right kind of people in the UK to deliver a fleet?
You don't need just any idiot with a financial deathwish, you need quality people who will deliver good competition every weekend of every year.
I think you need to look beyond the UK to get critical mass.
So what's the rest of the world up to?
The French seem keen on actually going somewhere, not w/l in sight of the clubhouse.

The growth areas in UK yacht sailing seem to be pay'n'play and things like the ARC?
Proper racers seem to be drifting back to smaller boats, and younger people are not deserting dinghies to play keelboats?

I think it might be very easy to wreck what you do have in inshore CHS and find nothing materialises to fill the vacuum.

 

[doug748]

"Proper racers seem to be drifting back to smaller boats, and younger people are not deserting dinghies to play keelboats?" lw395

Traditional wooden dinghies and small keelboat classes always seem to do very well. The racing is packed in Salcombe, Fowey and Falmouth and I guess the same can be said for the Solent?

I think the pattern is changing, people can race small boats at home and maybe keep a yacht abroad or charter regularly and have none of the ongoing commitment of keeping an expensive, depreciating asset in the UK. A bit bleak for the traditional bigger classes but there we are.

 

[flaming]

I think it might be very easy to wreck what you do have in inshore CHS and find nothing materialises to fill the vacuum.

I think my hypothesis is that it's already wrecked...

The entry list for the spring series that starts this weekend for IRC yachts is absolutely dire.

The only class growing is the J88. That's another class that really stalled after the first boat arrived and got hammered on handicap, but as it's sold by the one dealer in the UK with the ability to actually grow a fleet, they've finally made it. 8 boats on the line. It will be very interesting to see if they really kick on.

I guess my thought is that as we have a situation where participation in IRC racing in the mid sizes has dwindled, it's easy to state that the policies that have been employed - namely one of encouraging dual use cruiser racers - simply have not worked. And they haven't worked to the point where not only are there declining fleets, but there are not boats available to buy. So maybe it's time to think again? And who knows, maybe a cheap, fast, simple breed of race boats would be exciting enough to bring owners back to the party? But that will never work if they are uncompetitive when they arrive.

 

[lpdsn]

CR fleets are dying, despite all the things that RORC etc have done to protect them from Race boats. At what point do we actually admit that the days of large numbers of people wanting to cruise the same boat they race are over and set the designers free making boats that are better to race?

The thing about cruiser racers is not cruising the boat you race but having something of value when you choose to sell it and buy a new one.

I don't dispute that IRC has issues, particularly at the top end, but a new racer only handicap system is likely to run into the same issues as previous ones, particularly cost. Cost killed IOR as a new boat was required each year to stay competitive. The racer only IRM handicapped simply fizzled out leaving the owners with boats that weren't worth much.

 

[lw395]

CHS has had limited success.
It is now faltering at the top level i.e. the serious Spring Series etc.
But in the 30 years that CHS, IRC whatever it's called this week has been going, several 'pure racer ' formulae have failed utterly.
Also several OD fleets have been and gone.
The 'purist racers' have broken all their own formulae, now you're moaning that IRC has to change to suit you?
Maybe they could give NHC a go?

IRC's big problem is that in the Solent Ditch, it's been taken over pure racers who just want to sail up and down w/l courses..
Out in the regions you might find a few more people who race their cruisers under it.

J88, eight boats?
Who in their right mind is going to spend £100k to race an over grown dinghy in a fleet of 8 boats?
It is, in the real world where people work for a living, an awful lot of dosh to see the same few bows and the same few transoms every week.
You can probably get better racing for a tenth of the budget in J24s.
You can certainly get very much better racing for a fraction of the cash in dinghies, and that is where an awful lot of people who could afford to race yachts are staying. Quite a few others do short circuit racing in dinghies and longer races in cruisers.

 

[flaming]

The thing about cruiser racers is not cruising the boat you race but having something of value when you choose to sell it and buy a new one.

I don't dispute that IRC has issues, particularly at the top end, but a new racer only handicap system is likely to run into the same issues as previous ones, particularly cost. Cost killed IOR as a new boat was required each year to stay competitive. The racer only IRM handicapped simply fizzled out leaving the owners with boats that weren't worth much.

IRC is actually in rude health at the top end! Have a look at the fast 40s!
I'm not actually proposing a new racer only handicap, just suggesting tweaking IRC to move from favouring cruiser racers to favouring race boats in smaller sizes. This would mean that in locations where the boats are all C/Rs then no real change, but hopefully it might stimulate some new boats into the 30-40 foot bracket. Because right now despite C/Rs being favoured in this size bracket, nobody is building any!

I do take the point about having something of value when the racing is done, but there again IRC shoots itself in the foot. By insisting that we carry the cushions on board even for a day of round the cans racing, and the table and a lot of other stuff that we never use, all that's happening is they are getting damaged. The owner would dearly have loved to have removed them (obviously weighing in afterwards) to keep them nice for the potential cruising owner, but IRC insist they must be on board or you get a silly rating hit. So we cart it all around slowly trashing it, all on the fiction that half the fleet is going cruising next week.

 

[flaming]

CHS has had limited success.
It is now faltering at the top level i.e. the serious Spring Series etc.
But in the 30 years that CHS, IRC whatever it's called this week has been going, several 'pure racer ' formulae have failed utterly.
Also several OD fleets have been and gone.
The 'purist racers' have broken all their own formulae, now you're moaning that IRC has to change to suit you?
Maybe they could give NHC a go?

I'm not a purist racer! I sail cruiser racers, which is exactly what IRC is supposed to encourage! If there was a large fleet of C/Rs I wouldn't be making this case, as that would be awesome. But there isn't, so I'm just looking at ways to build fleet numbers. Right now we just seem to be doing the same thing again and again and wondering why it isn't getting better.

IRC's big problem is that in the Solent Ditch, it's been taken over pure racers who just want to sail up and down w/l courses..
Out in the regions you might find a few more people who race their cruisers under it.

Do you? I dunno, from the racing I've done elsewhere in the country the IRC fleet seemed smaller than the NHC fleet, and seemed to be basically the same mix of Benny Firsts and J Boats.

J88, eight boats?
Who in their right mind is going to spend £100k to race an over grown dinghy in a fleet of 8 boats?
It is, in the real world where people work for a living, an awful lot of dosh to see the same few bows and the same few transoms every week.
You can probably get better racing for a tenth of the budget in J24s.
You can certainly get very much better racing for a fraction of the cash in dinghies, and that is where an awful lot of people who could afford to race yachts are staying. Quite a few others do short circuit racing in dinghies and longer races in cruisers.

Well, the hope would be that 8 will become 10, then 20, then.... If you can name a "yacht" OD that gets 20 boats these days I'd be surprised. Certainly the J24s are basically gone in the UK.

Totally take the point that dinghy racing is great, no argument. But yacht stuff is just different, and it used to be that a lot of people liked it!

 

[lw395]

.....



Well, the hope would be that 8 will become 10, then 20, then.... If you can name a "yacht" OD that gets 20 boats these days I'd be surprised. Certainly the J24s are basically gone in the UK.

Totally take the point that dinghy racing is great, no argument. But yacht stuff is just different, and it used to be that a lot of people liked it!

You get more j24s in Plymouth on a thursday night.
25 j24s for Kiel week, 95 j70s with very few Brits.
There is life beyond the Solent.
But even there I guess S***sail can still put 20+ boats in an OD race now and then?

Demographics have changed, so have the economics.
People have moved on.
I think there just aren't the people who want to splurge £100k on Solent racing anymore.
A lot of people have turned their backs on being owners of boats for others to sail. A lot of others don't want to race against 'jockeys'.
These are your problems, not the rating system.

 

[flaming]

You get more j24s in Plymouth on a thursday night.
25 j24s for Kiel week, 95 j70s with very few Brits.
There is life beyond the Solent.
But even there I guess S***sail can still put 20+ boats in an OD race now and then?

Demographics have changed, so have the economics.
People have moved on.
I think there just aren't the people who want to splurge £100k on Solent racing anymore.
A lot of people have turned their backs on being owners of boats for others to sail. A lot of others don't want to race against 'jockeys'.
These are your problems, not the rating system.

Well I'll admit I didn't know about the Plymouth J24 fleet, that's a nice surprise.

Your points are all valid, I just get frustrated at a rating system that actively promotes a certain type of boat, but doesn't react when it's not possible to even buy that sort of boat any more.