inverter chillers AC technology

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meracus

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hi all
looking at installing one of these on my new to me fiart genius

apart from frigomar mentioned by portofino ( thank you sir ) is there any other manufacturers i should be looking at ?
whats does your install consist of ? gen set size ? the tech promises an even easier install . does that mean lower prices . and why does it cost an eye watering 8-10k for one of these , its like 20 domestic aircon ..... and thats excluding the air handlers !!!!!
any input is greatly appriciated
thanks
 
thanks , i did read your answer . was just checking if any other brand can be had for a more reasonable cost , im in smart home tech and we noticed disruptive pricing all the time , i was just wondering how can you get a unit that barely 400mm x 500mm to cost 10k , whats inside ? anyhow it is what it is i guess ...
 
im sold on the tech ... however wanted to understand waht so special about it it to reach 10k
superheat6k mentioned a penguin unit ( thank you squire ) that also seem to be 10k or so
wanted to upgrade her to more mod cons .... looking at 25-35 at the moment ( mfd / flexiteak platorm / genset / hifi / mastervolt ) ...... a summer of spam and pot noodles ahead !!!
 
As mentioned in the link ^^^ mine was fitted all in for €18 K inc French VAT .Spring 2015
From memory the 42000btu unit was just under €4K , not sure where or who quoted you €10 K ? Just for that - if I understand you post correctly.
Then included 3 air handlers , 2 calpedi pumps : seawater and cooling water , manifold , controls , various through the hull fittings ,pipes , grills etc and two blokes Labour for 4/5 days ( 2 of which when the boat was on the hard ) .

I did not buy it for its “tech “ I bought it for its quietness - you just can,t hear it when it running ensuring a good nights sleep in the high summer , or winter with the reverse ( heating) function running .

You need a top boat electrician to fit it all who is familiar with fitting the kit .


Although in hinds sight the low power consumption is great too .

I think some up to date traditional AC scroll pumps have slow start gadgets these days ,but nether the less fit a few of those self contained units ( cheap as they are ) - they still are miles away from the low power 2A start and low running Amps of a single inverter brushless D.C. motor running a chiller .

As I intimidated in a small boat kgs are a performance killer and space/ packaging is at a premium .

You are gonna have to get a few yards / fitters to come round and do proper surveys - find what will fit and where ?
 
We build and convert older industrial grade water chillers using AC Inverters to drive the compressors. The results as far as energy efficiency and indeed low start current are simply astounding, but this is still relatively new tech in the industrial sector, and much of the smaller end of the market follows what the large equipment developers do.

The issue with the leisure marine market is that it does not have the volume to have the mega firms such as Daikin, LG, Mitsubishi or Toshiba interested, but I expect some of their kit has been converted to make these smaller marine chillers, and I expect others will follow. Making low volumes means a higher burden of R&D, and unit costs will always be higher.

There is another issue that will start to bite this year as a result of the EU decision to phase down HFC refrigerants. R410A is the gas of choice for most AC equipment because it is moderately efficient and packs quite a punch in terms of equipment size -v- cooling capacity. But it is going to be an early casualty of the F Gas Phase down, and any of the replacements that can do the same job will be at least mildly flammable, which means the equipment using such gases has to be re-designed.

Don't expect marine leisure AC kit prices to start falling any time soon. Also do not be surprised to see common gases used in all cooling systems to be sold at more than £100 / kg quite soon. Prices for all common refrigerant gases rose 4 - 6 fold in 2017, and similar rates of increase are predicted to continue. A typical 42,000 BTU unit will likely hold ~ 3-5 kg of refrigerant.
 
Alternatives to the Frigomar:
Webasto V50M
Veco / Clima DC 50
Mar-IX various models
For those with a big boat with an appropriate place for it you might use a domestic unit. modern ones are really efficient, quiet and are dirt cheap compared to typical marine units. I saw loads of bog standard split inverter units installed on the IOM ferry roof. Finding the right spot in most pleasure boats will not be easy though.
 
Zing said:
Alternatives to the Frigomar:
Webasto V50M
Veco / Clima DC 50
Mar-IX various models
For those with a big boat with an appropriate place for it you might use a domestic unit. modern ones are really efficient, quiet and are dirt cheap compared to typical marine units. I saw loads of bog standard split inverter units installed on the IOM ferry roof. Finding the right spot in most pleasure boats will not be easy though.
Click to expand...

Probably the only parts of the Manannan (IOM ferry) that work all the time! :D:D:D
 
Zing said:
Alternatives to the Frigomar:
Webasto V50M
Veco / Clima DC 50
Mar-IX various models
For those with a big boat with an appropriate place for it you might use a domestic unit. modern ones are really efficient, quiet and are dirt cheap compared to typical marine units. I saw loads of bog standard split inverter units installed on the IOM ferry roof. Finding the right spot in most pleasure boats will not be easy though.
Click to expand...
The materials used for most domestic split AC units will not tolerate much saltwater nor the marine atmosphere, so if you do choose this route then expect not much more than 2 or 3 seasons use. Anyway the outdoor units look awful enough attached to a building's exterior wall, and would hardly be much of an adornment on the flybridge of any decent boat, especially when the rust streaks from the barely powder coated casings start appearing all over the deck beneath the unit. Besides water cooled are far more efficient that air cooled, especially as outdoor ambient temperatures rise - a water cooled unit in seawater at ~26oC in the Med will work at similar or indeed better efficiency to an air cooled unit operating in moderate UK Summer ambient temperatures.
 
Well aware of the phenomenon , had a catering unit with domestic fridges on a beach ( Latin America so no alternative )
Fridges lasted no more then a year !! Wére all about looks too ... I would be caught dead :) thanks chaps now talking to a recommended specialist in palma ( baleair )
 
superheat6k said:
The materials used for most domestic split AC units will not tolerate much saltwater nor the marine atmosphere, so if you do choose this route then expect not much more than 2 or 3 seasons use. Anyway the outdoor units look awful enough attached to a building's exterior wall, and would hardly be much of an adornment on the flybridge of any decent boat, especially when the rust streaks from the barely powder coated casings start appearing all over the deck beneath the unit. Besides water cooled are far more efficient that air cooled, especially as outdoor ambient temperatures rise - a water cooled unit in seawater at ~26oC in the Med will work at similar or indeed better efficiency to an air cooled unit operating in moderate UK Summer ambient temperatures.
Click to expand...

I think the efficiency of the typical marine AC is pretty bad compared to modern split units. About half as efficient. The best units are achieving a COP of about 5, whearas my Cruisair is rated at 2.3. Only the very best marine units can equal the commercial units and at hugely greater cost.

You are correct that the unit will corrode fast if left outside. It will benefit greatly from protection.
 
Zing said:
I think the efficiency of the typical marine AC is pretty bad compared to modern split units. About half as efficient. The best units are achieving a COP of about 5, whearas my Cruisair is rated at 2.3. Only the very best marine units can equal the commercial units and at hugely greater cost.

You are correct that the unit will corrode fast if left outside. It will benefit greatly from protection.
Click to expand...
The COP will vary considerably depending upon several factors - water cooling provides a lower saturated condensing temperature and hence discharge pressure, and hence load / amps draw of the compressor.

Compressor type matters a lot - an older piston compressor will struggle to achieve anything above 2.5, an older rotary isn't much better. Modern Scroll compressors without inverter can achieve up to ~ 4, and with an inverter 4.8 is possible.

Refrigerant also has a significant impact, not only on COP but also capacity per unit physical size. R410A and R134a are ~ 8% more efficient than R22 / R407C (and the myriad replacements for R22), but R410A will achieve the same capacity as R134a from a compressor half its physical size (swept volume). However, as R410A will be an early casualty of the current F Gas phase down I would avoid it.
 
superheat6k said:
The COP will vary considerably depending upon several factors - water cooling provides a lower saturated condensing temperature and hence discharge pressure, and hence load / amps draw of the compressor.

Compressor type matters a lot - an older piston compressor will struggle to achieve anything above 2.5, an older rotary isn't much better. Modern Scroll compressors without inverter can achieve up to ~ 4, and with an inverter 4.8 is possible.

Refrigerant also has a significant impact, not only on COP but also capacity per unit physical size. R410A and R134a are ~ 8% more efficient than R22 / R407C (and the myriad replacements for R22), but R410A will achieve the same capacity as R134a from a compressor half its physical size (swept volume). However, as R410A will be an early casualty of the current F Gas phase down I would avoid it.
Click to expand...
Interesting points on gas.

Water may in theory be better, but in practice it is very inefficient because a single pump is often used and that pump will be sized for the max output of the boat and will pump all condensers regardless of cooling needs or if they are even on. The boat will run on average at a low level of cooling, needing a fraction of the water flow put out by the pump. The pump’s consumption if brought into the efficiency calculation, which it should be, would make a typical boat air con efficiency look even worse in comparison. The pump really needs to be variable speed and or one per condenser. You never see that though.
 
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