Interesting video of how two different yachts handle heavy weather.

dom said:
Or one could simply enter one's chosen boat in a race and see how one got on? To save even the bother of that, why not just look at elapsed times in an exposed water race with a weather of one's choosing? At least a statistically meaningful sample could be taken that way!
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In my experience with vastly different sailing skills you would be testing the skippers as much as the boats. If you put the yachts head to head and put a sailmaker and expert helmsman onboard with the owner of each boat you would get parity. Even better, match race the boats on a course so you can see each boat in real time but they must be in full cruising trim not striped down for performance
 
While it would be an interesting survey I think the issue here is that it often has little to do with the wind strength and everything to do with the sea state and point of sailing.

For example in ocean conditions with a well spaced swell even in very strong winds most boats will handle well on most points of sailing.

The same boats will behave very differently when the swell is less well spaced, in quatering seas, or when the wind is on the nose. My IP will go downwind all day long in big winds and pretty much any sort of seas because she is designed for bluewater downwind sailing and the long keel and 23 tons comes into its own. She will actually go reasonably well up wind as well, the more so in big closely packed waves because she has the power, weight and length, but it will be very wet even with the CC. As we know gentlemen dont go to wind. On the other hand lighter weight fin keelers will offer a very different ride on all points of sailing, but will definitely be a lot less comfortable down wind because the motion will be more pronounced. In the same conditions my friend who owns a similiar length modern fin keeler simply could not believe how different the ride was in the IP - not just a bit different, but totally different off the wind. It will be slower, but it is the difference between arriving a hour or two later and feeling fine to being totally exhausted.

As ever there is no perfect sailing boat, but for downwind sailing a long keel, weight and length takes a lot of beating, and while I agree that well sailed there will be a lot less difference in passage times, the IP will be slower, of that there is no doubt, but as the wind increases, the difference will be less simply because short of a top racing crew over a longish distance the point is reached where most people simply dont want to drive the boat hard all the time, whereas a purpose made blue water yacht will drive it self hard all day long with minimium intervention.
 
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ip485 said:
While it would be an interesting survey I think the issue here is that it often has little to do with the wind strength and everything to do with the sea state and point of sailing.

For example in ocean conditions with a well spaced swell even in very strong winds most boats will handle well on most points of sailing.

The same boats will behave very differently when the swell is less well spaced, in quatering seas, or when the wind is on the nose. My IP will go downwind all day long in big winds and pretty much any sort of seas because she is designed for bluewater downwind sailing and the long keel and 23 tons comes into its own. She will actually go reasonably well up wind as well, the more so in big closely packed waves because she has the power, weight and length, but it will be very wet even with the CC. As we know gentlemen dont go to wind. On the other hand lighter weight fin keelers will offer a very different ride on all points of sailing, but will definitely be a lot less comfortable down wind because the motion will be more pronounced. In the same conditions my friend who owns a similiar length modern fin keeler simply could not believe how different the ride was in the IP - not just a bit different, but totally different off the wind. It will be slower, but it is the difference between arriving a hour or two later and feeling fine to being totally exhausted.

As ever there is no perfect sailing boat, but for downwind sailing a long keel, weight and length takes a lot of beating, and while I agree that well sailed there will be a lot less difference in passage times, the IP will be slower, of that there is no doubt, but as the wind increases, the difference will be less simply because short of a top racing crew over a longish distance the point is reached where most people simply dont want to drive the boat hard all the time, whereas a purpose made blue water yacht will drive it self hard all day long with minimium intervention.
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Any boat can go down wind. Look at the multitude of designs that do the ARC each year. How they go up wind is the issue for me. Flat bottomed modern fin keel designs with light displacement and ballast are likely to be a totally different experience up wind to your IP. You gets lots of talk on this forum about what is best. Those with old boats deride the new designs. Those with modern designs deride the old boats. Down wind isnt where it matters. Up wind in narly conditions trying to get home is where it counts. Any boat can go down wind. Only the best go up wind........well.
As to whether a long keel boat is better than a fin and skeg boat as are blue water boat is another subject.
 
geem said:
Any boat can go down wind. Look at the multitude of designs that do the ARC each year. How they go up wind is the issue for me. Flat bottomed modern fin keel designs with light displacement and ballast are likely to be a totally different experience up wind to your IP. You gets lots of talk on this forum about what is best. Those with old boats deride the new designs. Those with modern designs deride the old boats. Down wind isnt where it matters. Up wind in narly conditions trying to get home is where it counts. Any boat can go down wind. Only the best go up wind........well.
As to whether a long keel boat is better than a fin and skeg boat as are blue water boat is another subject.
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While true, it is a matter of how they go down wind. Sailing some "modern" fin keelers downwind in heavy weather takes considerable skill and a great deal of concentration or a drogue. Sailing some boats down wind takes a great deal less concentration and skill and rarely, if ever, a drogue.

I love performance boats - my background is racing both sporty dingies - Fireball, 505, and 49er, and racing yachts, and that is the basis for my comparison. Fin keelers will not point as high and will not go as fast up wind - size for size - but a 50 IP will go up wind in just about anything with the minimium of attention. Up wind or down wind switch, the auto pilot on and watch the difference in work levels between the two in heavy weather - that will tell you volumes. Live on the boat even for 24 hours in these conditions - up wind or down wind, hand steering or not and your muscles and body will tell you the difference. Of course the modern light wieght fin keelers IF you are prepared to work the boat the whole time you will get there first, but as I said, you may well be tucked up in your bunk recovering while I am out partying. Equally you may end up flat out in your bunk on board heavily reefed and having given up on sailing while the IP (or whatever) plods on quitely eating up the miles.

So I hope I dont deride one over the other, it is more a recognition of the right tools for the job. Lots of young fit lads and a desire to get from A to B quickly give me the light flat modern fin keeler, a husband and wife team who are more interested in safe passages and reduced workload and it is not the best tool - there is a reason why you see IP after IP on the cruising circuit and its not because they have made the wrong decsision because it will often be their second or third boat. The marinas are filled with something different in the UK and the Med because passages are gnerally short and people dont really travel.
 
ip485 said:
While true, it is a matter of how they go down wind. Sailing some "modern" fin keelers downwind in heavy weather takes considerable skill and a great deal of concentration or a drogue. Sailing some boats down wind takes a great deal less concentration and skill and rarely, if ever, a drogue.

I love performance boats - my background is racing both sporty dingies - Fireball, 505, and 49er, and racing yachts, and that is the basis for my comparison. Fin keelers will not point as high and will not go as fast up wind - size for size - but a 50 IP will go up wind in just about anything with the minimium of attention. Up wind or down wind switch, the auto pilot on and watch the difference in work levels between the two in heavy weather - that will tell you volumes. Live on the boat even for 24 hours in these conditions - up wind or down wind, hand steering or not and your muscles and body will tell you the difference. Of course the modern light wieght fin keelers IF you are prepared to work the boat the whole time you will get there first, but as I said, you may well be tucked up in your bunk recovering while I am out partying. Equally you may end up flat out in your bunk on board heavily reefed and having given up on sailing while the IP (or whatever) plods on quitely eating up the miles.

So I hope I dont deride one over the other, it is more a recognition of the right tools for the job. Lots of young fit lads and a desire to get from A to B quickly give me the light flat modern fin keeler, a husband and wife team who are more interested in safe passages and reduced workload and it is not the best tool - there is a reason why you see IP after IP on the cruising circuit and its not because they have made the wrong decsision because it will often be their second or third boat. The marinas are filled with something different in the UK and the Med because passages are gnerally short and people dont really travel.
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One thing I have learnt reading threads on this forum over the years is that there is no perfect boat for the job. Your perfect boat for long distance cruising is an IP. I guess all other IP owners would say it was the perfect boat for the job. Certainly those that choose designs for high latitidue sailing doent seem to choose IPs are anything similar to an IP. Most of these customs designs seem to be fin and skeg.
Most people would say that long keel boats are a thing of the past. Some deride any old design and say that only the crop of modern AWBs are any good. Clearly there will many different opinions are what is best as can be seen from the many different boats here in the marina in Santa Marta, Columbia. Most boats are heading through the Panama Canal and out into the Pacific.
Having sailed several thousand miles this season around the Western Caribean i can honestly say I have seen very few IPs. Thry are just one idea of the perfect long distance cruising boat but it is not a common decision people make.
Some observations this season from meeting a few long distance sailors is that although balanced rudders don't often fail outright they are a high maintenance item. They seem to require far more bearing changes than any other rudder design simple due to their high loading and the universal use of plastic bearings. For long distance sailing there are more robust designs that are appropriate so IP have that bit right at least, IMHO.
Having sailed several days to windward this season including the Windward Passage and a couple of days hard on the wind on a thousand mile passage to Panama in my fin and skeg cruiser ( husband and wife team ) I wouldnt swap for an IP or anything long keel. We sail using a Windpilot on long passages although the below decks autopilot copes with anythng we can throw at it the boat performs brilliantly. We dont sail a lightweight design but Mr Van de Stadt did a great job of designing a fast, comfortable, safe, easily handled expedition boat that is well suited to long distance cruising.
 
Might get some useful input from delivery skippers who have taken all sorts of yachts across all sorts of seas and oceans with a variety of crew of various abilities. In all sorts of weather.

Im in. :cool:
 
It seemed to me the wooden boat was pitching a bit where the Comfortina was rolling a bit ?

Boo2
 
Minn said:
My experience is that delivery skippers are much too tactful...
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Of course. One should always be careful to highlight to an owner the good points about the vessel. But its important to show where potential improvements can be made especially where safety is involved.

After all, on delivery you have plenty of time to discover how to get the best out of each boat. Thats the main thing really, rather than criticising a particular style or make, as is the usual here (anyway subjective) its doing what you can with what you have got.

As an example, Bavarias seem to have this somewhat unjust reputation. Ive seen them being used all over the place and personally have delivered a few including long coastal trips and ocean passages. Last year I took one from Antigua to Tahiti. Yet they get sledged on here.

Same with mutihulls. Couple of transats have shown me they can be comfortable if sailed as designed.

Anyway, someone has to do it.......;)
 
Seastate rather than windstrength is the difference. e.g. Bashing into a northerly f6/7 off Lowestoft a few weeks ago was horrible but in similar windstrength in the Western channel its been quite comfortable in the same boat .. much bigger waves but not that horrible chop the shallow east coast gives!
 
ip485 said:
While true, it is a matter of how they go down wind. Sailing some "modern" fin keelers downwind in heavy weather takes considerable skill and a great deal of concentration or a drogue. Sailing some boats down wind takes a great deal less concentration and skill and rarely, if ever, a drogue.
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Would you care to give examples of modern boats, of comparable size to your IP, which are difficult to sail downwind?

In the days of the IOR fashion for very narrow sterns, many such boats had a reputation for rolling and being tricky on a windy run. But these boats are long since been classed as “modern”.
Generally the more recent wider stern boats, providing not too extreme, are much more stable downwind, as well as a lot faster (provided a decent sized rudder has been fitted). Super wide boats like the Open 40s are extremely stable downwind, being sailed mostly under autopilot at very high speeds - with control ensured by twin rudders.
Generally an older long keel with rudder on the back of the keel means the rudder is too far forward for ideal control, with less leverage.
 
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