Integrated Navigation System Suggestions?

[demonboy]

I'm looking to replace my current B&G H1000 system with something new. It would need to include all the usual:

- chart plotter
- gyro-compass
- depth/wind fittings
- XTE, tide etc calculations
- auto-pilot control and unit
- repeaters

It would be nice to have a touch screen too, but not essential.

Currently I have a separate ship's computer with separate GPS and OpenCPN. This operates entirely independently from the B&G system, but I am open to the idea of running everything off a laptop/PC. I've never bothered to see if the B&G would talk to the computer or, more importantly, if I can control the B&G system via the computer. Not a big issue but I assume modern nav systems have greater PC integration these days. I have no problem playing with software and wiring up hardware but it's not an area I've investigated for a while so I'm a little out of touch with what nav systems can do.

Any recommendations on what system to go for? What names to avoid? What considerations I should think about re networking between systems? What's Raymarine really like? Any companies better to deal with than B&G, who seem to wash their hands with anyone who doesn't own their latest gear?

Any advice or pointers gratefully received.

 

[demonboy]

Anyone? Can't believe no one has an opinion on this!

 

[TonyS]

I had the same response to this - which is a similar question
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?366948-Linking-OpenCPN-3-2-2-to-an-old-Raymarine-System

 

[demonboy]

Maybe it's something most YBW users don't know much about since these are not purchased that often. Even so, I'm surprised no one can comment on experiences with Raymarine and other makes.

 

[prv]

Anyone? Can't believe no one has an opinion on this!

I think it's basically just too much of an open question. "I want some instruments" "Well, good". Not really much to say about it.

I could tell you what I have, but it's strongly influenced by what was already there, and by my ideas on navigation which are apparently somewhat esoteric these days.

Pete

 

[demonboy]

I think it's basically just too much of an open question. "I want some instruments" "Well, good". Not really much to say about it.

Hi Pete,

I think I was pretty specific with my questions, as was Tony with his. You know how this forum works, I might not get an immediate answer but any discussion on the subject is useful. I've never had to research the electronic navigation market until now.

 

[knuterikt]

I'm looking to replace my current B&G H1000 system with something new. It would need to include all the usual:

- chart plotter
- gyro-compass
- depth/wind fittings
- XTE, tide etc calculations
- auto-pilot control and unit
- repeaters

It would be nice to have a touch screen too, but not essential.

Currently I have a separate ship's computer with separate GPS and OpenCPN. This operates entirely independently from the B&G system, but I am open to the idea of running everything off a laptop/PC. I've never bothered to see if the B&G would talk to the computer or, more importantly, if I can control the B&G system via the computer. Not a big issue but I assume modern nav systems have greater PC integration these days. I have no problem playing with software and wiring up hardware but it's not an area I've investigated for a while so I'm a little out of touch with what nav systems can do.

Any recommendations on what system to go for? What names to avoid? What considerations I should think about re networking between systems? What's Raymarine really like? Any companies better to deal with than B&G, who seem to wash their hands with anyone who doesn't own their latest gear?

Any advice or pointers gratefully received.

Kind of an open question in the middle of my summer cruise..

First - by gyro compass you are thinking of electronic compass with rate gyro compensation, don't think you will find many gyro compasses for small boats.

I have the following equipment installed
Furuno NN3D MFD8 (NMEA 0183, NMEA 2000 & Ethernet)
Furuno RADAR DRS2D (Ethernet)
Furuno Heading sensor PG500R (NMEA 0183)
Furuno GPS Receiver (GP320B out of production) (NMEA 0183)

Em-trak AIS B100 (NMEA 0183 &NMEA 2000) interfaces with the N2K network and to the MFD8 via NMEA 0183.

Coursemaster 85i Autopilot, with it's own heading sensor (with rategyro) (NMEA 0183)

Raymarine wind, depth (old) and speed sensor (new)
Raymarine ITC-5 interface for sensors to SeatalkNG (=NMEA 2000)
Two Raymarine i70 displays

Actisense NGW-1 (NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000) gateway, connect the AP to*the SeatalkNG/N2K network

All integrated..

I think most decent plotters today will calculate XTE

Edit:

The MFD8 is in a navpod at the helm
Have a TV+keyboard+mouse connected to the MFD8 at the nav station for planning purposes - seldom have the luxury of a dedicated navigator as I mostly sail alone or with my wife,

Forgot the VHF Navman 7110 with remote mic at the wheel, taps GPS data of the NMEA 0183.

Integrated features:
The autopilot can steer in three modes
-By the dedicated electronic compass
-By wind data from the wind sensor
-By waypoints / XTE from the plotter
I must set the AP in desired mode from the AP control head.

The i70 display get data from (all on N2K/SeatalkNG)
- Raymarine sensors wind/depth/speed/sea water temp
-AIS data
-GPS position (from the AIS or from the MFD8)
-other GPS data from MFD8)
-Heading (from the MFD8)

The MFD8 get
data from the N2K bus and from it's own sensors

What is not integrated:
I can not transfer MMSI data from the plotter to the VHF (have not tried yet).
Can not activate the AP from the plotter.

 

[Caer Urfa]

Anyone? Can't believe no one has an opinion on this!

Keeping up to date with the latest electronics is a minefield, and the day you buy them they are probably already out of date.

I recently earlier this year wanted or had to replace my plotter & VHF Radio and wanted something 'user friendly' but reliable and with good after sales if needed.

I researched on here and spoke to other boat owners at various marinas, one common problem raised it's head time and again, 'interface problems' by 'differant instruments ' by differant manufacturers, so in the end went for a Standard Horizon GX 2100E radio and 300i plotter.

They do not do 'all you want' but 'most' and I very pleased with the system, especially the AIS flexability and reception, plus SH backup was there when sorting out a hitch wiring problem which was solved in hours by e-mail to them and phone.

Good luck

Mike

 

[prv]

I think most decent plotters today will calculate XTE

Even my old GPS128 from twenty years ago will calculate XTE

Pete

 

[prv]

For what it's worth, this is what I have. Or rather, what I will have in a few months, as I haven't yet built the cockpit pods for the plotter and AIS.

Wheel binnacle:
Raymarine ST60 autopilot controller, which can also act as a secondary display for any one piece of Seatalk data, handy if the helmsman is worried about depth and people keep standing in front of the main instruments.
Lowrance 4M plotter - a small plotter for use by the helmsman in piloting into unfamiliar harbours etc. Haven't bought this yet, and it will probably be the final piece added some time in the next year or so.

Central pod, just above the hatch:
Raymarine ST60 wind, speed and depth. Depth display is also set up to temporarily repeat the autopilot setting when changed, so I know if someone's tweaking it. GPS data for the Seatalk bus (instruments and plotter) comes from a Raymarine mushroom flush-mounted on deck.
Raymarine ST50 compass. This is helpful for steering a long leg on a compass course - you lock it on the required heading and a needle indicates how far to left or right of it you are. Easier to read than a traditional compass (though I do of course have one). It can also report the actual average course steered over a period, which would be useful for dead reckoning, not that I ever do any.
Raymarine ST50 GPS repeater. This is not connected to the Seatalk bus, but to the GPS-and-charts system below.

Port deck pod, to the left of the hatch and under the windscreen:
Vesper Watchmate dedicated AIS display. This has the best user interface I've found for actually using AIS in the real world, rather than just drawing arrows on a chart and letting you figure it out.
Fusion stereo remote control. So I can adjust the volume or skip a song without going down to the main stereo unit in the saloon.

Starboard deck pod:
Raymarine C70 radar / plotter. I don't like using a plotter for passage navigation, so offshore this will be regarded as a dedicated radar display, turned off when not using radar. Used as the main navigation tool, in plotter mode, when close inshore. It came with the boat, and in due course (several years' time) will probably be replaced by a newer unit, choice to be led by the available radar technology (probably a Lowrance broadband if I were buying today).
Custom switch panel, designed by me and laser cut. Controls nav lights, deck lights, deck power sockets (for searchlight, anchor light, electric dinghy pump, etc) and windlass. By "windlass", I mean that it turns the power supply on and off via a contactor below deck, it doesn't actually drive the windlass up and down. Although I will shortly be fitting a radio remote control which will do that, which is partly why the cockpit power on/off exists.

Cockpit coaming pocket:
VHF remote handset. This location has turned out to be a bit awkward due to the short cable, but I wanted the remote out of sight. Now that we have a canvas binnacle cover it can hide under, I will move it there at some point. To be mounted where it can be reached both by the helmsman (talking to marinas on approach) and from the front of the cockpit (my notional "captain on the bridge" passage position).

Chart table:
Yeoman plotter. Yep, I like paper charts and use them as the primary navigation tool unless we're into close-in pilotage. The Yeoman automates plotting of GPS fixes and taking ranges and bearings to and between points, and works really well with the way I like to navigate.
Garmin GPS128 numbers-only GPS. These things came in at about the same time I was old enough to care about navigation, and been using them ever since. Had to go to some lengths to get it now, but I wanted to have one because it's completely familiar. Works nicely with the Yeoman; I point to a spot on the chart, press "go to", and that's my next course. On Kindred Spirit, the GPS was visible from the cockpit to check that our track matched the bearing to waypoint, but Ariam's chart table is further away. This is where the old ST50 GPS repeater comes in, displaying the basic steering figures from the Garmin. The second-hand GPS came with no accessories so the aerial is a car-type one mounted under the side deck.
ICS Navtex. Currently just the display, used as a repeater for the instrument data (speed, depth, etc) via a Seatalk<->NMEA converter box, but I will buy the receiver module sooner or later. The main use for the instrument data is for filling in the log reading when making the hourly plot on the chart on passage - on Kindred Spirit I had to stick my head into the cockpit to peer at the speed display.
Standard Horizon GX2100 VHF. This is a decent radio, chosen because it has a built-in AIS receiver so no need for a second aerial, splitter, etc. AIS is fed to the Watchmate; will be connected to the C70 plotter once I get the right cable, but probably only enabled to help identify radar targets. The VHF also drives a foghorn mounted under the radome on the front of the mast. Position data for DSC (also the Watchmate) is from a dedicated BR335 GPS puck under the side deck, so the radio & AIS are independent of any other systems.

Loose:
Raymarine S100 autopilot remote. Stowed at the chart table, but has another stowage bracket at the front of the cockpit where it can be used like a second fixed controller.
Ebay cheapo windlass remote. Would allow me to raise anchor from the cockpit if necessary when singlehanded.

So, a slightly haphazard mixture of stuff but it all does what I want. The basic idea is to conn the vessel from the front of the cockpit, under the sprayhood and behind the windscreen with AIS and radar to hand. Steering either by a helmsman who is not navigating, or by autopilot using the mounted remote. Offshore, drop down to the chart table to navigate with charts and pencils; inshore there is a plotter in full view in the cockpit. Driving into an unfamiliar harbour while people mill about with sails and fenders, the helmsman is in charge and has a plotter he can reach and his own personal depth readout.

Pete

 

[Bosun Higgs]

It is very much of an open question - you havent indicated a budget, or what type of boat you have, let alone personal preferences for things like location of instruments. Being a bit old fashioned my plotter and radio are down below and I sail using a data repeater and log etc over the companionway. You might want a plotter on deck or a plotter down below that also gave TV and a pc display etc

Several people on here have posted negatively about touch screen plotters particularly on deck where the screen is affected by rain. Personally I would avoid them - even on land my tablet is more difficult to operate than my PC so what price being bounced around.

I would not buy Garmin. They have previously let people down badly when they changed chart suppliers so I would not feel that I could count on their back up. I inherited Raymarine which woirks well but the one time my plotter went down, a main baord for it was over £400 - compare that with what a PC main board costs! Got to say they were very helpful and have been several times when I have needed advice. But they are pricey. Nevertheless I would definitely go for Raymarine instruments or at least some other upmarket brand. Just think of NASA masthead wind units - at least Raymarine can be stripped down, bearings replaced etc.

I have a simrad robertson pilot - its old but first class. I would definitely go for the same under deck electro / hydraulic actuatoir rather than the raymarine but its expensive. Its also reaaly well engineered and totally reliable. See HLD 350. But with simrad for the pilot and raymarine for the instruments, I would risk incompatibilities.

I dont see the need for the radar or the plotter to be connected to the pilot so I would go for seperate instruments - I would not want to lose plotter, radar and ais at sea if just one screen went down.

 

[knuterikt]

Maybe it's something most YBW users don't know much about since these are not purchased that often. Even so, I'm surprised no one can comment on experiences with Raymarine and other makes.

You can get feedback on people's experience with different makes, but that wasn't what you asked for..

As others have posted already, the development in marine electronics is so rapid that stuff that is "state of the art" today might be "most bang for the bucks" tomorrow.
You must make a list of features that is important to you, and check what the different makes/models can give.
Budget is important, can or will you keep some of what you have? You can get interface modules for some "old" stuff.

Do you plan on radar?
If so you should know that it's only the Navico group the have the new "broad band" radars, others also have good new radars but based on different technology.

Today I wold only select components using NMEA 2000 as protocol for communication as it simplifies installation and exchange of data (Radar's can not use N2K)

My system configuration was built up over years, the Furuno NN3D was state of the art when we bought it, and still is a good system.
Furuno have released new SW for the MFD to support different new chart vendors.

But if I was to look at a new system today I would start looking at.
-B&G it's a part of the Navico group (which also have Lowrance and Simrad) they share technology but B&G is focusing on the sailboat market.
-Furuno good multifunction displays and radars, but I feel that sensors / instruments is a bit out dated (that's why I have Raymarine instruments & sensors)
-Raymarine
-Garmin

 

[prv]

they share technology but B&G is focusing on the sailboat market.

Indeed - B&G traditionally used to only do very expensive and complicated kit for serious racers, so most of us ignored them. However, I read that Navico have decided to rationalise their brands - having bought them as a separate companies they have an overlapping mishmash of products, and the parent company would instead like them to each address a clearly-defined market. The brand they have chosen to be their "sailing" badge is B&G, so expect them to increasingly cover cruising on a moderate budget as well as top-flight racing. Presumably at the same time, Lowrance and Simrad will retreat from the sailing market to concentrate on fishing and "sportfish / cruise", whatever that means, respectively.

Pete

 

[demonboy]

That's excellent, thank you for the replies. This is a useful starting point because it's helping me galvanise my thoughts, so a few more specific questions:

Autopilot
1. It seems as if the auto pilot is one thing that can't be integrated across different brands, is that correct? I assume it needs its own display unit and electric compass.
2. Knuterikt, you said you had Furuno kit mainly but a different autopilot system. Why is this? My current B&G system (when it used to work) not only works out things like XTE but talks to the autopilot to make those adjustments for me. Can you do this across different brands using NMEA? Is is possible to control an autopilot (hydraulic ram) via OpenCPN or a Raymarine chart plotter, for example?

Repeaters
3. If I have B&G wind and depth instruments (12 years old at a guess), can I repeat that info on a Raymarine repeater?

PC Info
4. Can chartplotters repeat PC info? I was looking up the Furuno NN3D MFD8, which is way more advanced than our antiquated plotter (takes 5 seconds or more to draw each layer as you zoom in and out). I'd like to be able to switch between chartplotter info and PC info.
5. Also, is it not possible to run all your instruments into the PC first and use the PC to repeat the data to other repeaters around the boat? Surely the best solution is to have an on-board computer that gathers all the data, runs the charting program (OpenCPN, Maxsea, Navionics etc), which is then repeated using screens that can read the PC screen. Any comments on this solution?

Binnacle screen
6. The only instrument I have on the binnacle is my autopilot control and repeated info like depth etc. I do not have a plotter and have never needed one, even navigating through reefs in the Red Sea and the Maldives (mark i eye-ball, and all that). However, I like the look of Pete's Lowrance 4M plotter, which comes at a reasonable price, but does this not mean you need to buy separate chart cards or could you get a model that acts as a repeater too (same question as repeating PC info I guess).

Broadband Radar
7. Aside from instant start-up, good range, low power, what are the other benefits of broadband radar? One guy here in Langkawi was telling me how he could use it to divide his boat up into regions and network wirelessly various controls. Either he didn't explain it well enough or I wasn't listening properly, but I didn't get what he was saying. Anyone any experience with broadband radar? I'm in the market for a radar anyway...

As it stands I am quite happy with plotting and navigating by PC, with the chart plotter (and paper charts) as backup. Each has its own GPS too. Since I plot my course on both PC and chart-plotter I need the two next to each other, which means they have to sit down below. If I have a repeater on the binnacle, it would be preferable to have the PC info to hand, with the ability to switch between PC and chart plotter.

Regarding through-hull fittings I guess I need to find out how easy it is to repeat my old B&G instruments to PC and/or plotter, or if I have to replace them.

Finally, I need to get my head around the autopilot and if the hardware can be operated with newer instruments, either B&G or non-B&G.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Broadband Radar
7. Aside from instant start-up, good range, low power, what are the other benefits of broadband radar? One guy here in Langkawi was telling me how he could use it to divide his boat up into regions and network wirelessly various controls. Either he didn't explain it well enough or I wasn't listening properly, but I didn't get what he was saying. Anyone any experience with broadband radar? I'm in the market for a radar anyway....

It could be that I'm not totally up to speed with these things, but the bit about networking makes little sense to me.

In all the tests that I have read in the various magazines it was noted that Broadband radar suffers from a reduced range when compared with pulsed digital radars.

 

[demonboy]

In all the tests that I have read in the various magazines it was noted that Broadband radar suffers from a reduced range when compared with pulsed digital radars.

You know more than me, I was just going by B&G's claim on their own website: own website.

 

[Lucky Duck]

You know more than me, I was just going by B&G's claim on their own website: own website.

I certainly wouldn't be as bold as to claim that!

Raymarine gives the nominal range of my 'vanilla' digital unit as 48nm vs 36nm for the 4G radar and no range figure is given for the B&G's 3G unit. How important that all is, is a different matter.

 

[demonboy]

How important that all is, is a different matter.

Indeed. I find radar most useful in whiteouts where the major hazards are fishing boats within my immediate vicinity. I rarely use radar over the 24nm range.

 

[knuterikt]

Broadband Radar
7. Aside from instant start-up, good range, low power, what are the other benefits of broadband radar?

First - my Furuno radar is instant on - but is has a price.. as there is an increased power drain for the permanent stand bye.

One guy here in Langkawi was telling me how he could use it to divide his boat up into regions and network wirelessly various controls. Either he didn't explain it well enough or I wasn't listening properly, but I didn't get what he was saying. Anyone any experience with broadband radar? I'm in the market for a radar anyway...

Here is a mix up of some sort.
The broadband in broadband radar has nothing to do with networking, it's about the pulse type used by the radar.

NMEA 2000 OTH has capabilities to remotely control "everything"

There are also other new power distribution systems that can be used in new installations.

It could be that I'm not totally up to speed with these things, but the bit about networking makes little sense to me.

All modern radars do all the processing inside the radar, the MFD's only act as a remote control & display unit, the data volume transferred from the radar to the display need some bandwidth most use Ethernet for this.
You can even find open source software that can tap date and display on a PC.

In all the tests that I have read in the various magazines it was noted that Broadband radar suffers from a reduced range when compared with pulsed digital radars.

Broadband radars have some good sides and some bad sides compared to modern HD radars (like Furuno & Raymarine)

I'm not comparing with older types of radars.

Range better on HD than on Broadband
Detecting squalls better on HD than on broadband

Resolution (ability to identify targets close) better with broadband than with HD
Power consumption better with Broadband than with HD

So it's a matter of priority

 

[prv]

Raymarine gives the nominal range of my 'vanilla' digital unit as 48nm vs 36nm for the 4G radar and no range figure is given for the B&G's 3G unit. How important that all is, is a different matter.

Broadband radar sends out less power in each "pulse" (it doesn't actually use pulses, of course, so I mean a chunk of its continuous sweep equivalent to a traditional pulse) than normal radar, so it's not at all surprising that range would be less. However, as we seem to agree, extreme range is not that important for most yachting purposes.

Pete