Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Coleman marine insurance brokers, no survey required as condition is self certified.
Insurance without a survey
- Thread starter JimDL
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You will find that different companies will impose different conditions, and the same company may impose different conditions on different people and boats - so very much an individual thing.
An insurance company is only interested in risk as they see it and a new client with a new (to them) old boat and no claims history is a potential risk. So not unreasonable they should want an independent assessment of the condition and value of the boat, plus of course evidence it actually exists!
However, once you are established with a record, many of these constraints fall away. I insure a 50 year old wooden boat last survey 1992 - never any questions, but been with the same company or its predecessors for over 30 years and only two small claims.
So you just have to shop around to find the best initial deal and build up a record.
An insurance company is only interested in risk as they see it and a new client with a new (to them) old boat and no claims history is a potential risk. So not unreasonable they should want an independent assessment of the condition and value of the boat, plus of course evidence it actually exists!
However, once you are established with a record, many of these constraints fall away. I insure a 50 year old wooden boat last survey 1992 - never any questions, but been with the same company or its predecessors for over 30 years and only two small claims.
So you just have to shop around to find the best initial deal and build up a record.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
I too am with Yachting24, which is the on-line arm of Pantaneous, although they down-play the connection. I had previous had 30 years of no claims with AXA but this years premium quoted was ridiculous so I wanted to change. Because of the good reports I had heard of Pantaneous, I contacted them - they wanted a survey. As I keep my boat in Italy that would be expensive.
I then had a recommendation for Yachting24 and filled out an extensive on-line questionnaire regarding my boat - they did not want a survey and the premium was very reasonable. I accepted their offer.
Then in July while anchored in a gale in Croatia, another boat dragged down onto me and caused significant damage. I immediately called the UK office and left my number on an answering machine, not expecting much in the way of a response. Within 30 minutes my mobile rang with the name of the caller and "Pantaneous Insurance". After a number of calming calls and sound advice a local surveyor was sent (for which I went into a nearby marina) and the entire business was conducted most professionally.
In the final analysis, all claims would have been met but the advice was to claim directly to the third party to avoid the basic self-payment cost and future no-claim bonuses. This I did and accepted an immediate offer from his insurance. Interestingly, both his (Bavaria) and my insurance head offices are in Hamburg.
In conclusion, prompt, excellent and professional service from Yachting24.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Good to hear this - I have not used them myself but have recommended them a few times to people looking for insurance without a survey when buying though our brokerage. They only deal with "class" boats, not one-offs.
As a broker I always say "....have a survey", but there are cases where buyers are very knowledgeable and have gone over the boat thoroughly. Also, I hope that I have spotted anything horrible myself - and if I know something is wrong I will tell buyers up front.
1bobt
N/A
Is a survey really necessary on a lowish value boat of say £30-50,000 There's not a lot that can go wrong if the buyer takes care and inspect it before purchase is there
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a common-sense approach. But I am always wary about having third-party cover, just in case................ Courts and claimants' lawyers can be cruel. Therefore, if having a survey means that I'm well supported in any Third Party claim, then I reckon it's a price/hassle I can accept.
As other people have stated above - I value my own life (and my crews') too much to take a risk on an unsound craft.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If you took a nought off the end and said £5k then quite reasonable. However £50k is a lot of money for anybody and a lot of complexity in a boat. Unless a buyer has real expertise madness not to have a survey.
Dazedkipper
Well-Known Member
Insurers look upon a survey as an independent, professional statement of a vessel's condition at a given point in time, normally when they are accepting the risk. The survey, providing all recommendations are acted upon, also provides the owner with the same statement of condition and, if you are unfortunate enough to have to claim on your policy you can prove the vessel was sound before the incident. Without a survey it is simply your word against the insurers and, as the onus is on the insured to prove the insurer is liable, you are not in a good starting position.
I for many years insured with a company from near where poor old Kind Harold copped his arrow. All was great until I had to claim and then it all went pear shaped simply because I could not prove condition before the incident. The brokers were less than useless and sided with the underwriters and their loss adjuster so I was stuffed! Like the OP I am an Engineer and carry out my own work when at all possible, I argued that I know the condition of my vessle better than a surveyor could ever do but it was not an accepted argument.
I think the expression is 'caveat emptor' !
My advice therefore is simply get a survey, irrespective of what your insurers want, it doesn't cost that much and could just save your boat.
I for many years insured with a company from near where poor old Kind Harold copped his arrow. All was great until I had to claim and then it all went pear shaped simply because I could not prove condition before the incident. The brokers were less than useless and sided with the underwriters and their loss adjuster so I was stuffed! Like the OP I am an Engineer and carry out my own work when at all possible, I argued that I know the condition of my vessle better than a surveyor could ever do but it was not an accepted argument.
I think the expression is 'caveat emptor' !
My advice therefore is simply get a survey, irrespective of what your insurers want, it doesn't cost that much and could just save your boat.
V1701
Well-Known Member
+1 - fully comp on 40 yr old Vega without a survey for £150 something. The company is underwritten by Pantaenius who have a very good rep, another forumite reported in another thread good claim handling from Yachting 24. If you only want 3rd party there's a few online for £80 or £90 odd...
sailorman
Well-Known Member
+1 - fully comp on 40 yr old Vega without a survey for £150 something. The company is underwritten by Pantaenius who have a very good rep, another forumite reported in another thread good claim handling from Yachting 24. If you only want 3rd party there's a few online for £80 or £90 odd...
check what the wording is regarding deduction after items are over 10 yr old.
you might find that,that includes your whole rig, inc. mast,sails & anything affixed to the mast
Read this thread
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340875&highlight=insurance+deduction
Last edited:
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Old motto " the cobbler is often the worst shod". A surveyor is independant
Easticks28
Well-Known Member
http://www.edwardwilliam.com/
Highly recommended. Not had a claim myself but I know of one who had a large claim settled with no difficulty.
Highly recommended. Not had a claim myself but I know of one who had a large claim settled with no difficulty.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Be a bit careful with 'no survey' insurance. I know of two 'total loss' situations where the company refused to pay out on grounds the boat had not been 'properly maintained' and was unseaworthy.
Most policies carry a clause to the effect the owner must take 'all reasonable steps' to ensure the boat is sound and seaworthy.
Not a problem for those of us who know what we are doing do all their own maintenance? Maybe not, but how do you prove to the Insurance company you HAVE taken care of everything and maintained it all properly if you did have a claim as a direct or indirect result of gear failure? Engine failure leading to stranding and total loss for example? Its just your word that decides them whether to pay out, and even the best companies want to minimize their payouts.
There is a simple way round this. Find a helpful boat builder who will inspect and give a written opinion of your boat. This costs a fraction of the professional surveyor, and provides that all important evidence that you did your best to ensure the boat is sound and seaworthy. Cheaper, because it is an opinion, not a survey, and there is no comeback if he missed something important. but at the same time you have an independent professional opinion of your boat's condition to support your claim. Last one I had done cost me £75.
Most policies carry a clause to the effect the owner must take 'all reasonable steps' to ensure the boat is sound and seaworthy.
Not a problem for those of us who know what we are doing do all their own maintenance? Maybe not, but how do you prove to the Insurance company you HAVE taken care of everything and maintained it all properly if you did have a claim as a direct or indirect result of gear failure? Engine failure leading to stranding and total loss for example? Its just your word that decides them whether to pay out, and even the best companies want to minimize their payouts.
There is a simple way round this. Find a helpful boat builder who will inspect and give a written opinion of your boat. This costs a fraction of the professional surveyor, and provides that all important evidence that you did your best to ensure the boat is sound and seaworthy. Cheaper, because it is an opinion, not a survey, and there is no comeback if he missed something important. but at the same time you have an independent professional opinion of your boat's condition to support your claim. Last one I had done cost me £75.
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
Ditto... when I joined though, and it may have changed since....
It's worth asking about what kind of survey they'll accept, often they'll also accept a 'yard survey' (ie. just a statement from a yard or other professional person that the boat is "seaworthy")
SpottyDog5
Well-Known Member
That is just what I was thinking, whenever I have spoken to them they seem to take a reasoned approach. I will ask them to confirm in writing any deviation from the policy, just in case 
Dazedkipper
Well-Known Member
I would check that this is acceptable to the insurance co, in my case I obtained such a statement from the yard where I kept the boat, but the loss adjuster said it carried no weight and it was dismissed.
nathanglasgow
Well-Known Member
Craftinsure wanted full out of water survey by proper accredited surveyor for this years cover.Last survey 2004 and insured with them since then.Absolutley no other form of condition report or survey acceptable.Had better things to spend the £700 odd pounds on so went with Yachting24 as no survey required for fully comp with racing cover.Only snag with them is that they can only offer this for vessels under 40 yers of age.Our Dufour Arpege is 40 in 2013.
SpottyDog5
Well-Known Member
Thought I would post this update.
I contacted Craftinsure today, as usual very helpful and sent me the following mail :-
[I]Dear Roy,
Thank you for your email.
We can confirm, as per our conversation, that we will not require a further survey until the last report is 10 years old (unless exceptional circumstances occur), but will need to endorse the policy each year as they are annual contracts.
Having noted this agreement in our records, we will offer this extension again at future renewals by separate email, and provide plenty of warning when a further survey is considered necessary.
Kind regards,
Rod Daniel
Craftinsure.com[/I]
I'm a happy customer
dombuckley
Well-Known Member
Blimey! £700 for an insurance survey on a 30 footer? I must be working in the wrong part of the country.
Seriously - should be about £270-300.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
I've been with JGW who usually accept an owners condition report. I would thoroughly recommend them as I've made a couple of claims and they've paid up. You never find out if your insurer is any good till you make a claim!