Insurance quotes

[qsiv]

Given the recent fracas over Pantaenius and the level of costs, and bearing in mind that my insurance was due for renewal, I went looking for quotes. Some firms wouldnt quote, and others misunderstood what I was after.

The only people who sent me a valid quotation were Bishop and Skinner. The comparative costs quotes were ...

Pantaenius : £ 3045.66
Bishop & S: £: 3429.56

The B&S quote isnt quite identical as it doesnt have full racing risks for the rig (the maximum they would pay is £50,000 less than the maximum Pantaenius would pay), and the crusing area is smaller (but not significantly so). The excess in the case of B&S is also markedly higher, and the benefit to injured crew members appears to be lower.

All in all, not the horror story I was expecting, as opinion had led me to believe that Pantaenius might well have become more expensive. Whilst mindful of the complaints of others, I have renewed with Pantaenius as they have always proven efficient when dealing with my insurance.

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[sailbadthesinner]

The measure of insurance is not what they quote but how they deal with claims.
That is all IMHO.
Cheap aint always Cheap.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[DeeGee]

Well, I have not had to claim, but I am insured with a company which cropped up here on SB, www.craftinsure.com. They are the internet arm of Navigators and General. They were considerably cheaper than my previous, and other quotes I went shopping for. (Have a look at the policy re: single-handed night sailing). They do require 3-up in Biscay.

[[ I have no commercial interest in said co. just a punter ]]

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[kimhollamby]

At risk of seeming like a pedant I think you'll find that craftinsure is an underwriting agency, not an actual part of Navigators and General which offers its own Internet service at:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.navandgen.com/index2.html>http://www.navandgen.com/index2.html</A>

Craftinsure's website states:

Craftinsure Limited is a privately owned Underwriting Agency and craftinsure.com is a trading name. Craftinsure.com's policies are underwritten by Navigators and General Insurance Company Limited, who are themselves part of the Zurich Financial Services Group whose assets exceed £160bn.


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[qsiv]

I can certainly agree and am aware of the problems others are having- but if I'm starting from a deficit of £50,000 if I do lose the rig it seems a somewhat poor opening position.

What I was really trying to say was that the perception that the rates were high for Pantaenius (which many had found) was not a universal truth. It might be that they are disproportionately expensive for certain sizes or values of boats. The new insurers would also have required a rig survey - that would have meant delivering the boat to somewhere in the UK with facilities (not many marinas have a crane big enough)and experience to remove the rig, inspect, survey, restep, test sail and re tune rigging. I cant see that costing anything under £3,000 (and possibly more) - and whilst it has a value it's not at the top of my priority list at the moment. Theres always the significant risk that rigging will be damaged and have to be replaced during such an operation.

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[sailbadthesinner]

understood

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[qsiv]

Unfortunately they can only insure 1/3 of the boat, which isn't quite enough...

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[pvb]

What does that mean though, Kim?

I'm just a simple soul, and don't really understand this insurance terminology (although I think I should find out). So, if CraftInsure's policies are underwritten by Nav&Gen, does this mean that, in the event of a major claim, if little privately-owned CraftInsure were to go out of business, Nav&Gen would still honour the claim?

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[BrendanS]

Re: What does that mean though, Kim?

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: I think I can explain (but before anyone starts picking holes, this is meant as a very simple overview)

Insurance is all about statistics and assessing risk,a bit like spread betting.

When you buy simple insurance, for something for which there is masses of data available, eg car or house insurance, millions and millions of people have similar insurance. So if you are a 39 year old male smoker, with 5 years no claim discount who live in Lymington and drives a 3 year old silver 2l mondeo, the insurance company has lots of other data to base their statistics on to calculate what the probability of you having an accident or suffering theft, and what the typical cost is likely to be.

Insurance companies underwrite this risk, and take you payment, and will pay out if you claim (they are probably re-insuring their risks out to many other companies ,but that's another story)

Where a market isn't so big, lets say sailing boats, the big insurance companies don't understand the market, and don't have enough data to calculate the statistics of you having an accident.

This is where Underwriting Agencies come in. They have specialist knowledge of the market, and can do far more accurate analysis of the risk of insuring you, and will be able to calculate if they can offer special conditions that the big companies may not consider (eg allowing single handed night sailing in the Bay of Biscay)

They put this insurance 'product' to a major insurance company, who will look at the explanation and statistics, and approve it as a product, and alllow the Underwriting Agency to provide that insurance product to brokers (or less typically direct to the customer, as CraftInsure are doing)

The company who is ultimately responsible if the Underwriting Agency should go broke, is the underwriting Insurance company (in your case Navigator & General, though as ever it's wise to check this point before you sign). This is the same as if you bought a policy through a broker. The broker adminsters your policy, but the insurance company is the one who is responsible for paying your claim

In the UK, insurance companies, agencies and brokers are regulated by the FSA. There are measures to take care of customers if an FSA regulated company goes under.

See, simple /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

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[DeeGee]

Re: What does that mean though, Kim?

Sorry to have been slip-shod. Thanks Kim for pointing that out.

Now, thanks to BrendanS, I think I understand the difference: CraftInsure are offering the insurance, and N&G etc are the underwriters who provide the actual assurance, i.e. it is N&G who pay out? Or have I got that wrong?

Is this different from my car insurance Frizzel, who are underwritten by Liverpool Victoria?

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[pvb]

The CraftInsure policy wording says...

If you look at the wording of the CraftInsure policy, the entire contract appears to be between the customer and CraftInsure. In the definitions, "We" (as in "We will pay for...") is defined as "craftinsure.com". I'd interpret that as meaning that if a problem arises any legal redress is only against craftinsure.com - not against Nav&Gen. The only mention of Nav&Gen is right at the end, where it says that craftinsure.com are underwriting agents for Nav&Gen.

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[Observer]

Re: The CraftInsure policy wording says...

An agent (craftinsure=underwriting agency) who acts for a principal (= Nav. and Gen.) binds his principal if he has actual, ostensible or implied authority. The agent's acts are just that - the acts of an agent and not (by definition) those of a principal. The principal can sue or be sued on the contracts entered into on his behalf by his agent.

The agent/principal relationship occurs in countless everyday situations: for example, a director of a company (as a separate legal 'person' from the company itself) acts as agent of the company when he signs a contract in its name. He has implied and/or ostensible authority to bind the company (he may or may not have actual authority).

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[pvb]

Thank you...

Thanks for confirming that. I know you understand the legal implications.

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[BrendanS]

Re: Thank you...

What Observer is saying (though probably doesn't want to say explicitly as he's in the legal profession, and could be seen as giving financial or legal advie, which would put him in a position whereby he could be sued for that advice, if the specifics of this scenario were ever contested):

is that CraftInsure are an agent. N&G, the principal, are ultimately responsible for all claims.

In simple terms (the difficulty here is that there are always exceptions) brokers, underwriting agencies, and agents, are 'front men' for the main underwriting insurers.

The 'front men' have specialist knowledge and experience, and take a commission off any payment you make for your insurance.

The company who is ultimately responsible for paying a claim is the underwriting insurance company. Here, N&G (though as I said, if unsure, ask and double check, don't take my word for it, it's not *always* true)

It's a very complicated area, but most of it is fairly transparent to the customer who has no need to understand re-insurance and other arcane arts!

In any case, in the UK, the industry is regulated, and if any insurance company, broker, agent etc goes under, you have extremely good rights which mean you are unlikely to suffer



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[spark]

Re: Thank you...

"In any case, in the UK, the industry is regulated, and if any insurance company, broker, agent etc goes under, you have extremely good rights which mean you are unlikely to suffer"

But beware of 'mutual' insurance companies because the members (i.e. those who are insured) are liable for the debts of the company and can be made to pay 'supplementary calls' (i.e. additional premiums) if the managers of the mutual have cocked up and not brought in enough money to pay the claims.

I got into just this sort of fankle with a company called Marina Mutual who had my business insurance a few years ago. I ended up having to shell out for a 'release call' in order to get clear of them.


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qei.co.uk/spark>http://www.qei.co.uk/spark</A>

 

[Observer]

\"Fankle\"

Is it?

1. The contents found in the cockpit locker on arrival at destination port after helpful but inexperienced crew have taken in and stowed the mooring lines?

2. The knot resulting from one's first attempt to make up a bowline "in anger" in a public place?

3. The content of one's live first VHF transmission?

4. Something else?

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[Twister_Ken]

tee-hee! nm

§

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[spark]

Re: \"Fankle\"

All of the above.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qei.co.uk/spark>http://www.qei.co.uk/spark</A>