Insurance Claim - Yacht Valuation Problems

{JJ : I don't know what damage the boat suffered but I imagine the £14,000 worth of electronics probably survived and could be transfered to a new boat. In any case, the value, for insurance purposes, of even one year old electronics would be a small fraction of the cost new.}

I have already made this suggestion to the IC ..... but they want my boat complete! They have stated clearly that I must not take any of the equipment off the boat.
 
JJ : With regard to the value, £60,000 would nearly buy you a new 36 footer in the British market

I know there's lots of 36' ers out there ..... some just pretending that they're ocean worthy. My boat has a solid laminate hull with over 12mm thickness in the bilge. It has no extensive internal moulding covering the essential hull structure ...... like so many of the cheap yachts today.

We have to compare like with like .......

There's certainly likely to be a difference between what someone else would pay for my yacht ...... and what I have invested in her. Peoples values are different. This is why Replacement Value is so important ...... and to determine that value by specifying the characteristics of the yacht carefully; before going to the market and looking for a yacht to fullfill that specification.

Another point ...... even when I find a 'replacement' yacht I still have to make it suitable for ocean crossings which will probably cost a significant amount above the purchase cost.

Oh .... by the way the deck house was an original feature, and one of the main reasons I bought the boat in the first place.

Many thanks for your comments ...... keep them coming /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Can you not insist on the boat being repaired to a condition reasonably similar to that which it was in prior to the accident. Refuse financial compensation. then the costs involved are academic to you. We had much the same thing in a claim we made against a yard accident . And though we involved our insurer's who in reality paid us a sum in lieu of repair , the level of that sum was much much higher then that banded about in the early stage's. The reason we felt was that we constantly suggested that we would like repair and that as the skills required where not available then repair would mean transport to Holland or something similar. In the end they (our insurer's) payed up on a list of quotes that would encompass the repair and we took the money in lieu of. They then went hard at it to recover the money from the other sides insurer's which they did but for a couple of hundred. At no time did we have any dealings with the other side at all. One point that our insurers surveyor made (and he is hugely experienced in this field) is that boat insurence is not the same as car insurence and also remember that he was their surveyor, the other side had their own surveyor and had we had forsight then we would have had our own surveyor too.

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I don't think I can refuse financial compensation. The choice to repair the boat or for the IC to buy it off me is almost certainly the IC's to make.

The Repair Costs vs Valuation is a constant comparison .... and it is exhausting having to battle on two fronts /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As for repair ...... the quotes that have been put forward by the IC are by small contractors that aren't even listed on the boatyard's approved contractors list (or at least didn't when I last saw the list). These quotes only cover a small amount of the known damage ...... and there's going to be a lot more by the time the boat is back to the pre-accident condition (even if that is possible). I expect the repair cost to be at least 4x that of these quotes.

I agree that if the boat is to be repaired, the IC or boatyard MUST pay for the entire repair themselves .... and that this must include proper professional oversite, intermediate inspection, and final acceptance survey ...... and for my accommodation (this yacht's my home) ..... and for my loss of way of life ...... and for the loss of percieved value due to the extensive repair work.

Thanks for the comments /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Could a way forward be that they compensate you and you keep the boat? It may be a write off to them but not to you?

Really bad luck and I commiserate with you. It seems that far more boats are wrecked by boatyards than by storms at sea.
 
The damage is extremely serious and extensive.

Last July my yacht was placed in its storage position on the hard for probably less than two hours when the yacht next to her fell over ..... hitting my boat and buckling her stands ...... and my boat fell against another boat with the first boat on top of her.

The result is that the integral keel is broken, with a number of supporting floors becoming detatched. In order that a repair can be carried out: the keel has to be straightened, the internal structure removed in way of the floors ..... which involves removing structure and furniture from the mast to the engine bulkhead, .... the floors rebuilt ..... and the interior rebuilt. This does not include the damage to the compression mast structure, the hull laminate, etc, etc.

With the yacht so extensively damaged, and my sailing requirements so demanding, I am not going to feel comfortable with a repaired boat ...... and I certainly don't want to redo all the work I carried out in 2000-2001.

I don't know if I can insert any photos into these posts .... pity /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
I think you might find that if you're dealing with an american insured yard you will not be entitled to consequential loss compensation, just the actual cost of the repair.

I found this out the hard way when a yard in Florida mad a complete mess of a repair to my prop strut.

It wrecked four people's holiday, cost me 10 days extra in an expensive Florida Marina, car hire, hotels in Miami and buying an extra flight as I had to stay with the boat in order to badger the yard into sorting it.

However, if the yard and insurance company is operating under US jurisdiction they will not accept liability for any of those costs. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
This is clearly going to be a very expensive repair.

I had a situation just the other week with my car which may have relevance. The car was hit (unfortunately by a friend of mine) while it was parked and unattended outside my house. His insurance company said the car was damaged beyond economical repair and offered us a figure to write it off. We initially refused because we wanted our car back - its old but lovable and worth more to us than its resale value. But the sum they were offering was more than the Glasses Guide value of the car, and when we inquired further we discovered that the insurance company would pay us the money and let us keep the car to repair if we wished, which, of course, we did.

In your case, could you take the money and the boat, strip her of everything of value, which could then be put into an otherwise ordinary replacement of the same type? Just a thought and maybe quite wrong.

Incidentally, I take a rather unScuttlbuttian view on modern boat building. While I accept that many cheaper production boats are built to minimum scantlings, the same was true of cheap boats of the sixties and seventies. Equally, good quality boats of both eras were/are built to above minimum standards.

That said, modern materials are way superior to anything available to the 1960s/70s builder - isophthalic, vinylester and epoxy resins, bi-axial and unidirectional cloths including Kevlar adn carbon fibre, resin infusion moulding and improved laminating techniques. 60s/70s hulls were largely chopped strand mat applied thickly to compensate for lack of basic strength, unfamiliar technology and lack of moulding experience. The hulls may look and feel thick, strong and rigid - and indeed often are - but they are also very heavy and more water absorbent. Modern hulls can get the same strength for far less thickness and weight - which doesn't mean that poor builders can't still build poor boats.
 
Sorry to hear about your situation. If the US valuation of a similar 36' 60s boat in average condition is £17k and in the UK is nearer £30k (which sounds about right) then you are going to have to work hard to substantiate a value of £60k.

(1) £14k sounds a lot to spend on navigation goodies - do you have receipts or can they simply be refitted in your new boat bought for the £17k offered? Make sure they are safe!

(2) When was the valuation of £60k made - 5 or 6 years ago after the refit or last year? What would the equivalent US valuation have been at the same time? What have you done since - circle the globe a couple of times or kept her in immaculate condition? Did you keep a complete file of bills/receipts for items fitted and work done. If you did much of the work yourself how did you cost that work and did you keep a detailed record of work done preferably with plenty of photographs?

(3) A completely restored 60s classic, recently done to a professional standard, could well be worth what you are claiming. Another approach might be to get quotes from local builders to restore a similar boat in average condition to the standard of your boat (which presumably still exists in its damaged state). (it doesn't mean you will necessarily get the full amount on a sale).

I hope this helps and good luck in your negotiations. At the end of the day you need to agree a realistic valuation which is fair to both parties.

PS I assume it's a UK yacht restored in the UK and damaged by a yard in the US. A further complication is the change in the exchange rate, the pound being much stronger now than it was, around $2 to £1 now.
 
I think, from reading a lot of articles in Boat US magazine after the hurricanes, that you may be better advised to claim off the insurance of the boat that fell onto yours.

You may also need to be aware that the boat yours fell against may make a claim against you.

What happens then is that all the claims 'snowball' so that the first boat to fall makes a single claim against the yard and the insurance companies sort it out amongst themselves.

After that it is up to the yard to sort it out with their insurance company.

It seems from your posts tht the yard's insurers are operating according to US laws.

It would be worthwhile if you haven't already done so, posting this question with details of the chain of events on the BoatUS forum.

You can register for free at www.BoatUS.com That way you will access people who are more familiar with US insurance rules. If you join Boat US, you could also access their adviceline.
Good Luck. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Thanks for your input .... again /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't want this thread to wander into pros and cons of modern vs older yachts ..... however interesting it may be.

I wont be happy with a Bavaria or Beneteau ...... but many people are. My yacht is built and fitted out for ocean passages. I feel very safe in her and she performed very, very well.

The important point for me is to have a realistic replacement value for my yacht. The surveyor has produced much supporting evidence for his Replacement Value which is for a similarly constructed yacht, with similar accomodation and sailing characteristics.

The IC has stated that the Replacement Value based on the UK market is not an acceptable basis for valuation. They claim an 'as-is-where-is' valuation i.e. USA market ..... and they also claim that it is not necessary for the boat to meet the RCD or have VAT paid because the boat is in the Caribbean.

At the end of the day I need a replacement for my yacht and that includes the ability to operate it legally in my home waters of the UK, where my yacht was based prior to my 2006 trans-Atlantic.

Any ideas how I can move the IC's ideas on valuation along?
 
1. The £14k was a blind guess.... I have the details ..... for nav kit (i.e. electronics : radar, forward seeking sonar, SSB, GPS, etc), liferaft, refridgerator, etc, etc .... all the usual cruising equipment. If I check this figure it will probably be bigger!
2. The Replacement Valuation is current and based on the characteristics of my yacht prior to the damage. Receipts and photographs don't prove much ...... the best evidence is surely the opinion of a properly qualified professional assessing the yacht for value taking a view as to the condition just prior to the accident?
3 The problem with this is the extent of the restoration was such that it is difficult to get a fixed price quote that can be relied on. Most quotes in this neck of the woods are only a guide to the minimum likely cost! Who takes on the risk of an under-estimate? me?

Thanks for your comments ..... keep them coming /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
"Was the yacht insured by you? if so, the value that you put on it is the value that you will get if you make a claim. A yacht insurance is normally a 'valued policy', i.e. the insured value is paid out if there is a claim. "

?? So why was my boat devalued by time against original value set by me on insurance application and also based on market values ? Ins. Co (actually the Underwriter) will not pay the value you stick on the form ... I have never seen that happen. I have been involved in various claims of TCL and PCL ... and always a market Evaluation and devalue has been applied.

So my boat valued at 10K + 3K equipment if sunk tmrw ... I get 13K ... even though those values were placed on Ins. 8 yrs ago ?? Serious doubt it ...
 
What is the Insured value you pay premium for ? And how long ago was that put on the insurance ? and by who - you, Surveyor valuation or another ?
 
I insure my own boat. This is very common ..... as insurers don't like ocean passages .... for some reason they prefer boats to stay close to the coasts and hence rocks /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The Replacement Valuation was determined by the Surveyor after carefully assessing the pre-accident condition and the prices of comparable yachts on the market. I can't think of a better way of doing it.
 
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I insure my own boat.

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You mean that you take on the risk yourself and do not have any actually insurance? It may be common where you are, but not here as few marinas will let you in without insurance another consequence is that you find yourself in the position you are in now. There are insurance companies who will normally insure people outside of the Brest/Elbe limits and one famous one that claims to make life very easy in your situation, but they are also reputed to be he most expensive, but worth it by those who use them.

I think that you have an arguable case to a point, I think that your case will probably revolve around the value they place on the rest of the yacht without the equipment. If they say that the equipment is only worth £2k then you say that you will buy if from them for that and then argue about the value of the hull. It sounds that this is the route you trying to go down. Make a list of the premium equipment on board and ask what they will charge you to buy it back. So for instance if you have radar, forward looking sonar, colour chart plotter, generator, water-maker. These could be removed whilst still leaving the boat as a saleable boat with radio and GPS. By agreeing the value of extras, they will then have to value what remains as a yacht and not as a partially stripped out vessel.

You only have to look at the pages of Yachting World to see adverts for boats for sale which read like this:- "Dream Boat for sale only £150k, full refits 18 months ago no-expense spared over £230k spent" etc. etc. Your boat sounds like one of these, you cannot reconcile what you have spent with its resale value.
 
You/your surveyor will need to substantiate/justify your valuation sooner or later - either now to negotiate a settlement or later in court. A possible alternative is arbitration where the parties agree to accept the valuation of a 3rd, independent surveyor. It would be cheaper and quicker than litigation though you would have to agree the basis on which the valuation is to be made. At the end of the day the likelihood is that you will have to meet somewhere in the middle.
 
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I insure my own boat. This is very common ..... as insurers don't like ocean passages .... for some reason they prefer boats to stay close to the coasts and hence rocks /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The Replacement Valuation was determined by the Surveyor after carefully assessing the pre-accident condition and the prices of comparable yachts on the market. I can't think of a better way of doing it.

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So as I understand it ...

You do not have Insurance Cover via a Broker or Underwriter as normally is the case ?

Then how do you cover for damage to another ? Minimum req'ts that any normal Marina / Club / Mooring facility will require ?

Do you lodge an Indemnity Amount / Document somewhere to cover in lieu of Insurance Cover ?

So if you have no Insurance covering the boat issued by recognised Company - then the Insurers you mention in original post are Yards Insurers ?

Did you sign / agree any documents regarding Yards work / responsibilities before the incident ?

Taking into consideration "lack" of Commercially available Insurance on the Boat, probably lack of signed agreement listing responsibilities of each party, A UK boat damaged in a US yard ... they've made offer already ... Looks decidely "dickey" to me ... I hope you get satisfaction ... I really do.
But you are fighting a fight in the Land of Lawyers and Ambulance Chasers ...
 
Quite simply, you need a lawyer. It'll cost you more than insurance would have done but I fear it'll cost you a whole lot more again if you don't get one.
 
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Quite simply, you need a lawyer. It'll cost you more than insurance would have done but I fear it'll cost you a whole lot more again if you don't get one.

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US is full of No Win No Fee guys ...
 
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