Inside gybing an assy - and I mean really inside

[Chris 249]

Okay, I'm not that new to assy gybes; in fact I did my first ones on an offshore boat in the '80s. But here's the rub - I've always done them on fairly fast boats with long poles like radical offshore boats, skiffs or cats, where the sail schlepped easily around the forestay when doing an inside gybe. Now I'm looking at doing them on a J/36, which is essentially a J/35 with a fractional rig and more furniture.

I'm not going to fit a bowsprit/donk/dork/pole, but instead will use a conventional pole. Because I'm used to inside gybing I was just assuming after the tack line was taken up and the pole taken off, you'd flip the kite over inside the foretriangle and aft of the jib as you do with a jib, and as we do with the MPS/cruising chute.

So why does it turn out that people with conventional poles normally either do an outside gybe, or an "inside outside gybe" where the clew passes behind the spinnaker but forward of the forestay, which seems to be begging for a wineglass? We have a three-halyard system (three halyards sitting side by side, all of them below the forestay) so the halyards shouldn't be any more of a problem than if we were doing outside or "inside outside" gybes. I suppose catching the spinnaker on the spreaders is a risk, but we've never done that with the MPS and the only time we used our new racing chute we gybed aft of the forestay with no issues.

 

[flaming]

Okay, I'm not that new to assy gybes; in fact I did my first ones on an offshore boat in the '80s. But here's the rub - I've always done them on fairly fast boats with long poles like radical offshore boats, skiffs or cats, where the sail schlepped easily around the forestay when doing an inside gybe. Now I'm looking at doing them on a J/36, which is essentially a J/35 with a fractional rig and more furniture.

I'm not going to fit a bowsprit/donk/dork/pole, but instead will use a conventional pole. Because I'm used to inside gybing I was just assuming after the tack line was taken up and the pole taken off, you'd flip the kite over inside the foretriangle and aft of the jib as you do with a jib, and as we do with the MPS/cruising chute.

So why does it turn out that people with conventional poles normally either do an outside gybe, or an "inside outside gybe" where the clew passes behind the spinnaker but forward of the forestay, which seems to be begging for a wineglass? We have a three-halyard system (three halyards sitting side by side, all of them below the forestay) so the halyards shouldn't be any more of a problem than if we were doing outside or "inside outside" gybes. I suppose catching the spinnaker on the spreaders is a risk, but we've never done that with the MPS and the only time we used our new racing chute we gybed aft of the forestay with no issues.

Any gybe must follow the pattern of the tack and the halyard, so if they are inside the forestay then the gybe must be inside the forestay, and if they are outside then the gybe must be outside the forestsay. Otherwise you will be putting sideways pressure on the forestay at top and bottom. And especially if you have a fractional forestay but masthead halyards.
Your halyard arrangement is very unusual. so you may have to develop different techniques than "normal" but certainly the inside outside gybe is perfectly doable.

 

[knuterikt]

So why does it turn out that people with conventional poles normally either do an outside gybe, or an "inside outside gybe" where the clew passes behind the spinnaker but forward of the forestay, which seems to be begging for a wineglass? We have a three-halyard system (three halyards sitting side by side, all of them below the forestay) so the halyards shouldn't be any more of a problem than if we were doing outside or "inside outside" gybes. I suppose catching the spinnaker on the spreaders is a risk, but we've never done that with the MPS and the only time we used our new racing chute we gybed aft of the forestay with no issues.

Most hoist the asymmetric on the spinnaker halyard located above the head stay, the tack must be in front of the head stay to avoid side load on head stay.
If distance between tack and head stay is short - the only way that works is outside. Having the asym on a bowsprit would make "inside outside gybe" an option.
Have never seen an asymmetric or conventional spinnaker hoisted on the inside.

 

[mrming]

With all the halyards exiting below the forestay, what happens to the head of the kite on a run? Am I missing something geometry wise here? It sounds to me like the sym kite (or rotated assy) would end up either pushing against the forestay at the top or having a strangely twisted head?

 

[lw395]

With all the halyards exiting below the forestay, what happens to the head of the kite on a run? Am I missing something geometry wise here? It sounds to me like the sym kite (or rotated assy) would end up either pushing against the forestay at the top or having a strangely twisted head?

The halyard rubs on the top of the headfoil slightly. No drama. The head of the kite lives outside the foretriangle.
Probably gets messy if you gybe and then want to peel kites, but I've never trusted the rabble forward of the mast with that sort of thing...

I had a boat where the small kite went on the genoa halyard, just below the forestay. Never occurred to us to gybe it inside the stay.
The big kite was masthead.
The only asy was a cruising chute, not used for racing. That was masthead. TBH we usually gybed that by snuffing it and took the opportunity to put the kettle on etc. In light airs we'd only have one sheet on it anyway.

 

[Chris 249]

It's not a massive issue. There are various vids and articles where riggers and major sailmakers mention using an jib halyard and "inside inside" gybing with an MPS, and none of them mention forestay interference as a problem. I think the J/36 has a prominent metal fitting running at the same angle that runs down a few inches from the mast, and the forestay connects with that. The halyards lie against the metal fitting, rather than the forestay if I recall correctly; I get the feeling that Americans don't seem to worry much about chafe, judging from the spin halyard fittings on some of their boats!

 

[Triassic]

Sorry for slight derail but if you fly a spinnaker inside the forestay does that impact on your rating? I may be displaying a certain amount of ignorance around how monohulls are rated but certainly with our system (MOCRA) anything flown inside the forestay is rated as a foresail, anything outside as a spinnaker. You are rated on your largest foresail and largest spinnaker, which has led to a trend with multihulls to have screechers which are effectively genoas flown from the end of the bowsprit on a furler (and being smaller than their spinnaker don't impact on their rating) yet can be used very effectively to windward in light airs....... If I sound at all bitter it's because we don't have one and as a result got our butts kicked last weekend!

 

[mrming]

Under IRC spinnakers are rated separately and you're rated for for your largest one. Oversize poles carry a rating penalty so heavier IRC friendly boats often feature short bowsprits and only use their assys on the actual reaching legs. There are also some true asymmetric boats who just suck up the penalty for a long pole and sail the angles - works for some (e.g. J/97) but not all.

 

[bbg]

I used to race a lot on a J-36 and the spi halyard was above the forestay.

Are you absolutely positively sure that it exits below the forestay? If so, I would be tempted to modify the mast and fit an exit sheave above the forestay. Actually have someone do that for me.

I think you will really struggle to gybe the kite inside the forestay in anything other than very light conditions.

As for gybing - with a symmetric kite, do you ever gybe it inside the foretriangle? The pole yes, but the kite? I don't think so.

 

[flaming]

Sorry for slight derail but if you fly a spinnaker inside the forestay does that impact on your rating? I may be displaying a certain amount of ignorance around how monohulls are rated but certainly with our system (MOCRA) anything flown inside the forestay is rated as a foresail, anything outside as a spinnaker. You are rated on your largest foresail and largest spinnaker, which has led to a trend with multihulls to have screechers which are effectively genoas flown from the end of the bowsprit on a furler (and being smaller than their spinnaker don't impact on their rating) yet can be used very effectively to windward in light airs....... If I sound at all bitter it's because we don't have one and as a result got our butts kicked last weekend!

It's similar but a little different, in that a Jib and a spinnaker are defined by their Mid girth. A sail with mid girth over 75% of the foot length is a spinnaker, regardless of where and how it is flown and vice versa.

So a code zero (IRC legal screacher) counts as one of your spinnaker allowance, even if you fly it on your Jib halyard. If it had a mid girth of less than 75% then it would measure as a jib and thus effect your rating.
Some of the really big maxis have actually tried a no spinnaker setup, where even their downwind sails are flat and rate as (massive) jibs.

 

[dancrane]

The inside/outside question has me in the dark, as a spinnaker-novice.

Being familiar only with the genoa ahead of the mast, I tend to assume I'll find it easier gybing the asymm (not designed for my boat) inside its own tack, as the genoa does...

...in fact I haven't worked out why it's common practice to do it outside (although I may easily have misunderstood the whole issue).

I'm still 'engineering' (carving bits of ply) a structure for my bowsprit, currently 10' 6", of which only 4ft will sit inboard. I won't trim it till I've seen how the asymm will set.

I don't have any rules to consider except my own, which is 'easier is better'. But, assuming ample sprit-length between the forestay and the kite's tack, is 'inside' gybing easier?

 

[TangaraToo]

I don't have any rules to consider except my own, which is 'easier is better'. But, assuming ample sprit-length between the forestay and the kite's tack, is 'inside' gybing easier?

Using the wind to assist is generally easier. As the Clue wants to fly in front of the bow during a gybe it can be easier to do outside. Doing it well inside requires good timing getting the kite through as it starts to collapses but before it wants to swing around the outside.

On dinghy I always did it outside. On current boat (Jeanneau 389) the assy is just shy of 900 sq ft. Tend to do it inside as there is just enough room and speed of rotation through the gybe is slower. Going outside requires a lot of sheet length around the outside of a spinny that big.

 

[flaming]

The inside/outside question has me in the dark, as a spinnaker-novice.

Being familiar only with the genoa ahead of the mast, I tend to assume I'll find it easier gybing the asymm (not designed for my boat) inside its own tack, as the genoa does...

...in fact I haven't worked out why it's common practice to do it outside (although I may easily have misunderstood the whole issue).

Think you have to be honest...

For an Dinghy with a bowsprit you will gybe the sail inside its tack. I can think of no good reason to outside gybe on a dinghy.

For example.

 

[dancrane]

...a dinghy with a bowsprit...will gybe the sail inside its tack. I can think of no good reason to outside gybe on a dinghy.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping to hear. It's just a big distended genoa and needn't get special treatment beyond the care which its area demands.