Inshore of No Man's Land fort

[Twister_Ken]

Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

No Mans Land Fort, eastern Solent

We followed another yacht (at a safe distance!) between the fort and the island, where a recent chart shows a submerged barrier. We had a least depth of 5.8 metres at Portsmouth HW with a 3.8m range, implying at least 2m above CD. Does anyone know whether there are any obstructions left there?

 

[Celena]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

I've also been inshore as you some years ago with no problems. Afterwards I phoned Solent Coastguard whose advice was to "pass between the forts" as he was unsure whether the barrier existed.

 

[simonjinks]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Been over both of them loads of times. I suggest you take a look at big LW springs, standard pressure and flat sea to make your own judgements as to what is safe. I would not rely on heresay where charted stone barriers and my yacht are concerned.

 

[Guest]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

i've also been inshore with no problems. have heard that the barrrier has been removed but is still charted as there are still obstructions on the sea bed. don't know how true this is but it sounds feasable.

 

[oldharry]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

The barrier is still there at the landward end, and was clearly visible out towards the small boat passage during an exceptionally low tide earlier this year.

It is a row of large concrete blocks, though I would not like to guess how far apart they are. It would be quite possible for a yacht to pass between them unawares - but its impossible to know exactly where they are when the tides up.

However if the seaward end is still there, it appears to be below MLWS, so that provided there is sufficent rise above MLWS for your boat to clear them safely there should be no problem.

This was not the case for the coaster in 1978 whose skipper was too drunk to know which of the forts was which, and went north of No mans land Fort. He hit it, and sank his ship....

 

[Guest]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

We always go inside the fort. Never had a problem. Famous last words.

 

[Guest]

The Barrier IS THERE ... look at LW

BLOODY RIGHT there are ...... it happens to be a Submarine Defence Barrier ...... have a look at low water and you'll be surprised to see very large concrete blocks .....

A few years ago, a French Racing boat was proceeding to a Well Known Boat Yard .... decided to take the shortcut, had to be salvaged after his 7 ft fin was snapped off the bottom of the boat like a twig !!

There are two channels for 'small boats' ... the inshore a few yards off the beach, the second is 1/2 way along the barrier .... at high water should be no problem, but any other time - at your peril !!!!!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by nigel_luther on 25/09/2002 08:46 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Ken

Much conflicting advice here, but I'll add mine for what it's worth.....

I have passed inshore plenty of times but always much closer to the fort than the shore. My (recent) book of Solent hazards says that the barrier has been removed and that a survey by navy divers a "few years ago found no sign of it." Given the other messages here about real obstructions visible at the shore end, I have taken this statement to mean that there is nothing on the outer 50% as a safe assumption.

To further support this claim, the book says that a large cargo ship accidently passed between the fort and the island one night in a fog and encountered no problems.

Finally, whilst the latest paper charts show the barrier, the latest electronic charts do not, I believe - a boat next to me in Bembridge looked at his e-chart the other week and it showed no barrier in place - but it showed the mainland one over the other side.

At low tides you certainly will find shallow water in the vacinity of the (former?) barrier and even if it has been removed I imagine that lots of sediment build-up remains around there, so I reckon it could still be possible to hit the bottom in a deep keel at a low spirng tide - but I think that would be a normal grounding and not the barrier itself.

I will continue to use the inside route but stay on the outer 50% and as always will monitor the depth as I approach the area and turn around if I don't like it - in a sailing boat the decrease isn't so sudden to cause a problem - a motor vessle might need to be more careful I guess.

Rob

 

[jimi]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

I've always wondered whether if it were to be totally removed, it would affect the tidal flow in the area, or if the surface area of the barrier is too small to be significant!

Jim

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Probably it would. I'm no hydrodynamacist but I reckon that after years of build-up around the barrier, they might only have had to removed the top 'nasty bits' to effectively create a level seabed. That might explain why there is a gradual shallowing either side which peaks at a shallowest point where the barrier is/was.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: The Barrier IS THERE ... look at LW

Nigel,

What you say is certainly true of Horse Sand fort where a barrier runs between it and a cable short of Southsea beach, with a small craft passage marked by dolphins approx halfway along; but doesn't seem to be true (any longer) of No Man's Land.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

You might expect that heavy blocks laid on sand, with no (or inadequate) foundations, in an area scoured by strong tides, would eventually have the sand 'hydro-excavated' from under them, so that in the end they are simply swallowed up.

 

[jimi]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

On the other hand if they have created resistance, one would expect the tide perhaps to flow stonger in the channel of least resistance, ie the deep water between the forts, and the shallow water to get shallower? It would be interesting to see charts of the area prior to the building of the barrier & the forts to see if there has been any significant change.

Jim

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Agreed, but as sand spits move with time anyway it might not prove much.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: The Barrier IS THERE ... look at LW

It certainly sounds as though Nigel is getting muddled between the two and thinks we are discussing the mainland barrier - which is most definitely there!

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

There seems to be some confusion here - there are definitely still obstructions between Horse Sand Fort and Portsmouth - you can see them at LW springs so cross at your peril.
The debate (and original question) is whether obstructions still remain between No Mans Land Fort and the Isle of Wight. There are reports that these have been mostly removed, with the emphasis on "mostly". With a big tide and local knowledge and shallow draught, people disregard them.

 

[iangrant]

Answer is:

The submerged barrier stops about 1/3 of the way to the shore from No mans land fort on Chart SC5600.7 4th Edition Jan 2001 leaving .03 LAT - there is shown a red can bouy to the SW of the end - looks like safe passage to steer on a course of 110 degrees.

Me, I'll carry on round the forts thanks!

Ian

 

[Guest]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Hold on harry...

North of No Mans Land fort... that's through the channel! Unless I'm mistaken, the forts go (in a North - South direction)

Spit Sand
Horse Sand (barrier to Southsea, marked by pilings, boat & inshore passages)
No Mans Land (barrier to the island, alledgedly no longer there!)
St Helens

The submarine barrier between No Mans Land and the island is alledgedly 'not there any longer' and at HW there should be no issue.

The barrier between Horse Sand and the mainland at Southsea is still there, but again, as it's pretty much at MLWS, an hour either side of high tide, even at neaps, most boats should be OK.

When talking about the Portsmouth side barrier, for a few hundred metres diversion to pass through the boat passage, why risk it? On the island side, sure, take a shortcut at HW.... if you're happy with the tidal position.

 

[Grehan]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

My copy of Peter Bruce's "Solent Hazards" is on-board (as it should be!).
What does he say?

 

[Cutter]

Re: Inshore of No Man\'s Land fort

Played hookey (if thats how you spell it) and went sailing yesterday afternoon. Went over submarine barrier between Horse Sand and mainland three times in different places with no problems - BUT it was HWS with a 4.5m Portsmouth tide.

Lovely early autumn afternoon and near empty Solent. Magic.
Regards