Inputs on purchase of 50-65ft boat, year 2000-2006-ish

[nihildk]

Hi!

Nice forum - I've been reading some posts in here, which gave me some info. But I would like to get some info and inputs on my exact situation, as I've booked for a couple of viewings of boats for sale here in Dubai over the next days.

So brief about the purchase:
I used to sell boats and equipment + fitting it 10 years ago when I lived in Denmark, so I'm not totally green on this, neither an expert. Now I live in Dubai, and I'm in the market for a boat to be used for combined fun and business (by business I mean meetings with partners etc.). It will be used on a basis as pr. day cruising, probably not any vacation-style longer than a few days at a max. Weather conditions around here are almost always no or very low wind, high temperatures and easy waters. Budget around 1,5-1,8mAED (estimated 4-500,000 USD). I'm thinking we will keep the boat for 3 years and after that probably sell it, so resell value 3 years later is also important. We will hire a captain + maintenance guys.

From my days back in Denmark I was always taught to look at the established brands with a good history, therefore my main focus are on: Princess, Sunseeker & Azimut. Now, I would very much like your inputs on this - everything relevant is welcome. Because of the budget and the wished size of the boat, we are looking at boats from year 2000-2007-ish. It is also possible to buy boats from cheaper brands in Dubai from 2012-2015 in the same price range, but I believe these boats are of bad quality and I'm afraid I will not be able to sell one of these again.

3 boats in question right now (but inputs about other brands are welcome as well):

Sunseeker 74 Manhattan year 2000:
https://www.bushandnoble.com/yachts-for-sale/2000-sunseeker-manhattan-74/

Azimut 62 year 2005:
http://www.royalyachting.ae/boats/925

Azimut 58 Fly year 1999: (Imported from Italy 1,5 year ago, has been a rental boat since, but should be well taken care of)
https://dubai.dubizzle.com/motors/b...huge-reduction-azimut-58-fly-ready-to-nego-2/

Azimut 50 Fly year 2003: (Probably too small and has been a rental boat for years):
https://dubai.dubizzle.com/motors/b...SZjb25kaXRpb25fX2d0ZT0mdXNhZ2VfX2x0ZT0=&pos=2

- What would I prefer as to my brief "intro" above?
- What shall I take a close look at on these boats?
- What would you recommend?
- Any brand specific to keep a look out for on these boats?
- Maintenance costs? What should I expect and any difference between the boats?
- How do I check the history of the boat in the best way?
- Anything you know I should be aware of when purchasing boat in Dubai?
- Other relevant inputs for me?

Thanks in advance!

 

[nihildk]

Response on the idea of importing a boat instead could also be usefull, fx:

Pershing 50, 2008:
https://ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/used/power/pershing/50/31492/

or

Azimut 62 Evolution, 2007:
https://ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/used/power/azimut/62-evolution/33806/

 

[rafiki_]

Welcome to the forum.

Older boats will depreciate slower, as they will have lost more of their initial purchase cost. However, will need more spend on maintenance as things wear out. All the boats you name are fantastic, but are different in size. How much space do you need? Will you have a professional crew? Mooring costs etc are other factors.

Having said this, I really like Azimuts, their styling is different and they are well built. This is personal choice and many on here will prefer Sunseeker/Princess/Fairline. Don't discount the other excellent Italian boats either. They are really strong in this size range.

 

[nihildk]

Welcome to the forum.

Older boats will depreciate slower, as they will have lost more of their initial purchase cost. However, will need more spend on maintenance as things wear out. All the boats you name are fantastic, but are different in size. How much space do you need? Will you have a professional crew? Mooring costs etc are other factors.

Having said this, I really like Azimuts, their styling is different and they are well built. This is personal choice and many on here will prefer Sunseeker/Princess/Fairline. Don't discount the other excellent Italian boats either. They are really strong in this size range.

Thanks for your response and the welcome. Yes, a professional crew will be hired (captain + a waiter). About spacing, everything from 50 and up goes, but I'm also keeping in consideration, that if the maintenance costs of a 62 is the double of a 50, I would maybe reconsider. How much more would maintenance (in fx percentage) be on a 2006 Azimut 62 compared to a similar one from 2014? Or from a 50 to a 62? Just so I have an idea about it. I'm also aware to prefer a private owned boat, captain maintenanced from new, but it seems like a hard thing to find here.

I am also looking at maybe importing a boat, could be:

https://ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/used/power/pershing/50/31492/

or

https://ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/used/power/azimut/62-evolution/33806/

 

[jrudge]

I would base a Brand decision ( for depreciation reasons ) as to what is popular locally

This varies by climate, dealer etc.

Azimut for example is a tough sell in the U.K. but fine in the med.

Sunseeker have done a good global pr job.

You will need local support but they are all made from a generic parts bin. Familiarity with the brand helps as you know how it was put together but is not essential for the main mechanical parts

 

[About Time]

Well,

I would suggest this one - https://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/windy-58-249/
Build quality is among its best, sea keeping and economy you do not get better in any boat of this size.
I own a 37 Grand Mistral and the build quality is fantastic.
As for price. The 58 boat should sell at the same price in three years if well maintained and looked after. Just keep in mind that boats of this size do not just sell. It takes a while - Not that many buyers.

 

[nihildk]

Well,

I would suggest this one - https://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/windy-58-249/
Build quality is among its best, sea keeping and economy you do not get better in any boat of this size.
I own a 37 Grand Mistral and the build quality is fantastic.
As for price. The 58 boat should sell at the same price in three years if well maintained and looked after. Just keep in mind that boats of this size do not just sell. It takes a while - Not that many buyers.

Thanks.
Could you elaborate a bit on why sea keeping and economy is better in this exact boat compared to Azimut? Or Pershing for that matter.

I'm aware of the few buyers, but hope was to sell it at the same price or maybe 10-15% lower in 3 years. Which of course could take some time, also here in Dubai.

Sjovt at se en anden dansker i øvrigt ;-)

 

[nihildk]

I would base a Brand decision ( for depreciation reasons ) as to what is popular locally

This varies by climate, dealer etc.

Azimut for example is a tough sell in the U.K. but fine in the med.

Sunseeker have done a good global pr job.

You will need local support but they are all made from a generic parts bin. Familiarity with the brand helps as you know how it was put together but is not essential for the main mechanical parts

It seems Azimut is one of the "easiest" boats to find here, with various models available. For that reason I'm also considering Azimut a lot, and will have a look at 3 tomorrow (50, 58 and 62).

Anyone with an idea of what to expect of maintenance costs on a yearly basis? I know it varies, also whether it's a 60 or a 70ft, but just an estimate? Not talking about harbour costs here.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Well,

I would suggest this one - https://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/windy-58-249/
Build quality is among its best, sea keeping and economy you do not get better in any boat of this size.
I own a 37 Grand Mistral and the build quality is fantastic.
As for price. The 58 boat should sell at the same price in three years if well maintained and looked after. Just keep in mind that boats of this size do not just sell. It takes a while - Not that many buyers.

Windy's are a tough cookie to sell in the med. Not as strong as would you think. I think the 58 is also a hard seller up North, the styling did not work well for that boat.
Windy is popular in the 30 to 40 feet size after that they become hard.
I would be mindful of the exaggerated sea keeping marketed by Windy, without taking away nothing from it, she would not hold much to an Itama, or a Magnum in rough seas, and even some Pershing's as the 52 or the 54 would give it quite a challenge.
BTW the Windy seakeeping story was build on the 9800 model the founder owned in the 80s when one day he encountered a storm and made it way back home without any serious problems.
In the 80's a lot made serious boats much more to today.

Azimut, Princess and Sunseeker are a global brand World wide and sell everywhere. I think even in this forum we have quite a few Brits with Azimut's in the UK nowadays who fall in love with the style.
The problem with UK market that since red diesel was removed, the internal motor boat market has really become small.
Azimut Benetti Group still build and sell the most yachts above 24 meters for the last seventeen years, and they do build around 200 boats a year sub that size. I think exluding the French only Princess build close to these numbers today.
Also fair to say that when the going got tough in around 2012 Azimut was the one of the big companies who did not need any outside help, and is still privately owned by its founder.
Considering the damage the Italian market had, which was much worse to the removal of red diesel that's quite a story.

Ferretti Group (Ferretti / Pershing / Riva) and it's brand are about panache and style and need a certain type of clientele which in North Europe exists very little.

They are increasing but most of them move to the med over time.

Still I would suggest a Ferretti over many others in this list.

 

[nihildk]

Windy's are a tough cookie to sell in the med. Not as strong as would you think. I think the 58 is also a hard seller up North, the styling did not work well for that boat.
Windy is popular in the 30 to 40 feet size after that they become hard.
I would be mindful of the exaggerated sea keeping marketed by Windy, without taking away nothing from it, she would not hold much to an Itama, or a Magnum in rough seas, and even some Pershing's as the 52 or the 54 would give it quite a challenge.
BTW the Windy seakeeping story was build on the 9800 model the founder owned in the 80s when one day he encountered a storm and made it way back home without any serious problems.
In the 80's a lot made serious boats much more to today.

Azimut, Princess and Sunseeker are a global brand World wide and sell everywhere. I think even in this forum we have quite a few Brits with Azimut's in the UK nowadays who fall in love with the style.
The problem with UK market that since red diesel was removed, the internal motor boat market has really become small.
Azimut Benetti Group still build and sell the most yachts above 24 meters for the last seventeen years, and they do build around 200 boats a year sub that size. I think exluding the French only Princess build close to these numbers today.
Also fair to say that when the going got tough in around 2012 Azimut was the one of the big companies who did not need any outside help, and is still privately owned by its founder.
Considering the damage the Italian market had, which was much worse to the removal of red diesel that's quite a story.

Ferretti Group (Ferretti / Pershing / Riva) and it's brand are about panache and style and need a certain type of clientele which in North Europe exists very little.

They are increasing but most of them move to the med over time.

Still I would suggest a Ferretti over many others in this list.

Thanks for your reply and elaboration.
I will look into Ferretti as well.

I read a bit about Ancasta as being a good broker on this site. Actually called them today about the Azimut 62 linked to above, but he was just signing the contract for sale as I called him. Anyway, I think I will look more into the importing thing, and I’ll have a chat with Ancasta tomorrow morning and see what they can help me out with. I’m guessing they would also have the experience and Know-how to bring the boat to Dubai from wherever it might be, also when it comes to customs, licenses, transport etc.

As I read it you’re talking positively about the Pershing. Any inputs on the Pershing from Montenegro linked to above? There’s no flybridge, but I’m thinking as as day cruiser it looks pretty decent, though priced as a 62 Azimut from 2007 in good condition. And if it’s a boat type that is moved to and sold in Middle East it could make sense. Any take on this?

 

[About Time]

Windy is known for its excellent V hulls. They use a special technic in the lay up of the hull that gives good strength but saves a lot of weight. These things help in overall performance and economy. This 58 handles like a much smaller boat.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Windy is known for its excellent V hulls. They use a special technic in the lay up of the hull that gives good strength but saves a lot of weight. These things help in overall performance and economy. This 58 handles like a much smaller boat.

There special Technic is called Diab core, which them and Azimut where the first to use as far as I remember. Windy was using part coring in the hull even before Azimut.
Now Azimut, Princess, and Windy all use DIAB core, which is far from being the best. The long tested balsa is much better (tough not advisable below water line), and Core-cell even though more expensive is a much better core for example.

Some ten years ago an owner friend of mine with a Windy 28 Ghibli delaminated during after the first season, and its structural grid got lose.
To be fair the boat was replaced by Windy, but the replacement also had again a problem in the structure twice, this in a span of less to two years.
Eventually the owner sold it.
Yes I agree the hulls are excellent, especially in the handling department.
The 37 you have is a nice boat build in the normal Technic which hardly gives any problems.

I think the Chinook is a very nice boat in the current line up. As was the 48 which currently I am not remembering the name.

I also always loved the fact that they gave wind name to the models, like Italian Raffaelli does.

 

[MapisM]

I would have rather stuck to timber, than go for a cored hull GRP boat!

 

[MapisM]

This 58 handles like a much smaller boat.

Probably because she is.
Out of curiosity, I checked your link because that boat is in some ways similar to one which I happen to know rather well (the DP 58 HT).
The latter is a whopping half a meter beamier, almost 50% heavier (yes, not a typo: 25 vs. 17 T), and equally fast.

Regardless, I think you are missing the OP point.
If an easy resaleability in Dubai is important for him, suggesting that a Windy (or DP for that matter, as well as many other yards regardless of how good their boats are) meets that criteria, well, that sounds pretty much as wishful thinking.
In his boots, I'd rather add to the above list a Riva, for instance.

 

[Mr Proach]

It may not be an issue for you, but i'm also in Dubai and the berths are extortionate, I've looked at Jabal Ali and the Marina to compare, plus the sailing grounds aren't exactly the best. Interestingly though, I'm in exactly the same position, sold a 52 ft boat about 18 months ago but now looking for a new one, up to 60 ft. I'm looking for a Squadron 58 or 64.

 

[Portofino]

Probably because she is.
Out of curiosity, I checked your link because that boat is in some ways similar to one which I happen to know rather well (the DP 58 HT).
The latter is a whopping half a meter beamier, almost 50% heavier (yes, not a typo: 25 vs. 17 T), and equally fast.

.

And there’s me thinking i am the the odd one out looking at the tech stuff first over size of mid cabin or prawn griddle second .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Still I would suggest a Ferretti over many others in this list.

Me too, particularly as my last 3 boats have been Ferrettis and I've been very pleased with all of them

Take a look at the 530/550/590 models which should fall into your price/age range

 

[AndieMac]

I would have rather stuck to timber, than go for a cored hull GRP boat!

The (ex) American boat surveyor David Pascoe wrote some interesting/scathing reports about cored hulls in local US brands, particularly having the opportunity to examine various boats after severe Hurricane damage. Also comments regarding overall quality when comparing different brands of equal size and length with significant differences in weight.

 

[MapisM]

Me too, particularly as my last 3 boats have been Ferrettis and I've been very pleased with all of them
Take a look at the 530/550/590 models which should fall into your price/age range

M, I don't think anyone here in the asylum is more entitled to comment about Ferrettis than yourself.
But since I evaluated all the boats you mention (and then some), I'll throw in my 2c.
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree that Ferrettis in general should be high on the list of anyone with the OP requirements.

Ref. the specific models you mention, assuming that by 530 you actually mean the 53 which you owned (renamed 530 in the last few years of production), imho the best is precisely that one. It's no coincidence that (afaik) it was their highest numbers model ever.
Insane battery bank placement aside, she gets my vote for the best 16m P boat.
So, if she's large enough for the OP needs, he would struggle to find anything better.

The 590 is an entirely different beast, MUCH larger (beamier than the 620, in fact) and with a cockpit/saloon/flybridge to die for.
But at that size, I think most folks would find it hard to accept not having a full beam master cabin.
Besides, I have it on good authority that her hull is nowhere near as good as any others of the yard around that size, starting from the glorious 175 and all the way up to the 620.
Last but not least, she's powered by MAN V10, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone.
The 3196/C12 of the 53/530 arguably weren't among the best Cats ever built, but I'd have them rather than the MAN V10 any day.

Lastly, the 550: personally, I ruled that model out 10 mins after boarding one.
"What were they thinking?" springs to mind, when you see the internal layout.
I suppose their main target was to have two ensuite guest cabins, as an upgrade vs. the 53, which only had one shared head for both.
But the result is imho awful, and overall the improvements over the 53 (if any) are nowhere near enough to justify the cost difference.
Besides, she was powered by MAN V8/900, which while basically much better than the V10, were plagued with all sort of teething troubles connected to the early adoption of common rail.

In addition to the above, I would definitely include the 57 in the list.
As the evolution of the 165, which was already an excellent boat, she is widely recognized as one of the best Ferrettis ever built - still with old school s/steel frames rather than glued windows, just to name the most visible among many other details that took over the boatbuilding industry in the following years, in order to cut production costs.
Not revolutionary by any stretch of imagination, she's essentially a 53 on steroids, with much larger spaces due to both a bigger hull and V-drive transmission, but very well balanced in all departments, and with a great hull (165-derived, but without the trick of propulsion moved forward in order to not include the whole hull section under the swim platform in the "official" LOA).
Her powerplant was also good, with a choice of either MAN V8/800 or Cat 3406 - though I think most of them were built with the MANs, so the latter engine, which was possibly the best in that power node, is harder to find.

Blimey, while writing this I'm almost wishing to start looking again for a boat.
That's indeed good fun, if you don't mind wasting some of your time and deal with several crook brokers - arguably the majority of them!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

M, I don't think anyone here in the asylum is more entitled to comment about Ferrettis than yourself.
But since I evaluated all the boats you mention (and then some), I'll throw in my 2c.
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree that Ferrettis in general should be high on the list of anyone with the OP requirements.

Well yes. The 53/530 was indeed one of Ferrettis best selling boats but I tend to take sales numbers with a pinch of salt because they not only depend on how good the boat is but how strong the market was at the time they were sold. And yes the 53/530 hull is very good being one of the final hulls designed by Norberto Ferretti himself (which you told me I believe). And yes later Ferrettis tended to become fatter in order to maximise accommodation but Ferretti, like other manufacturers, were just responding to what they perceived that the market wanted. The one thing you can say about all Ferrettis, even later models, is that, unlike other manufacturers, they have kept the profile of their boats and the centre of gravity as low as possible and retained a Cat A CE rating (FWIW). If I was the OP, I would not rule out any of the models I have mentioned because it sounds like he is looking more for accommodation space than how well the hull slices through a chop

And yes, its highly therapeutic to waste a bit of time trawling through Yachtworld adverts just for fun