inner keel casing support Newbridge Venturer

[AEMD]

Hi, I'm new to posting on the forum, though I joined ages ago.
I have a small problem with my Newbridge Venturer. It's a rare lift keel model, kept on Lake Cazaux in France,
The boat is on a swinging mooring, in fairly shallow water, and subject to a lot of pitching and tossing in the wake of passing motor boats.
Last year whilst sailing in a ( rare) decent breeze I noticed something felt odd. When we got back to the mooring I had a look down below and discovered that the internal GRP casing that contains the upper edge of the keel drop - plate when lifted to the uphaul in the cockpit that should have been attached for support to the starboard bulkhead had become detached. I bought some resin and some strand mat and set about attempting to re-fix the casing, but I have not a lot of confidence that this is a good enough repair.
I asked for a quote from a local-ish boat yard, and 400 -500 euros was the answer, which is sadly completely out of my budget.
I have some photos, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them here, but I'd be very grateful for any advice - I guess I still need to stay with support from just the one side as attaching it to both sides could cause stresses that may cause the casing to crack? Should I glass in a block of wood, or continue with my idea to put a support round the tail edge of the keel casing, as indicated by the piece of aluminium grille I started to attach?
In the mean time the boat is still on it's trailer awaiting a decision to launch or not.
Pics here: http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j75/daisy_dales/Boat/
Help.

 

[srp]

Grind it back with a Dremel fitted with a little sanding drum,

clean up with acetone and lay up a repair with 3 or 4 layers of woven glass cloth and epoxy resin.
There is a lot of information on using epoxy on the West website.

 

[AEMD]

Thanks, I have a Dremel, so that bit's easy. The glass cloth I can get here seems very open weave and it's a pig to deal with as it just falls apart the minute you try to brush some resin into it. Perhaps it's because I'm a newbie when it comes to using this stuff as against ordinary filler.

 

[exfinnsailor]

You will need some West Epoxy
A pair of rubber gloves
3 or 4 cheap brushes
A mixing tray
A scraper
A board to work on

If you mix West in a jug / jar / cup it gets very hot and sets very quickly ..

You will need some chopped strand mat . What you have used is no good whatsoever . Chopped strand is like a thick blanket with threads going everywhere .

Clean everything and use your Dremel to get a good keyed surface .

Cut a piece of chopped strand matt similar in size to what you used before . Place on the board and carefully soak it with epoxy. Don't go to mad as it will drip everywhere. Just enough to soak through. Then coat the area you have cleaned with a thin layer of epoxy. Carefully lift the chopped strand matt with a scraper and apply in position. Leave to go tacky then repeat same again with another layer of matt. Don't be to quick and don't use to much epoxy or it will run down everywhere

Have Fun

..

PS Google 'Chopped Strand Matt' so you can see what you need ..

..

 

[VicS]

Ive not used epoxy but plenty of polyester resin .

There is a special woven cloth to use with epoxy isn't there, without the filler which is in the CSM used with polyester? My understanding is that the filler dissolves in the polyester resin but not epoxy.

If you STIPPLE rather than brush you will not pull the mat or cloth apart.

There may be some useful info, esp on techniques in THIS PUBLICATION from Tyler Boats

 

[exfinnsailor]

As VicS suggests a woven material. They do pull apart very easily so you could get someone with a sewing machine to sew round the panels two or three times first and then cut them out . It would stop them falling apart might make your job easier ..

 

[AEMD]

Wow, thanks guys, lots of useful advice here - I feel encouraged.

 

[Martin_J]

As the others have said.. stipple or dab the resin into the chopped strand matting until it's changed colour all the way through. Don't leave pale white patches showing. Apply to a surface that's already painted with resin and dab in...

Most important part I think is to ensure that there is NOT ONE SINGLE STRAND pointing upwards or outwards when you finish dabbing.. If there is then when it sets it will be as sharp as glass.. ouch!

Oh and chopped strand matt will not 'do' corners. If you are cornering over the top edge perhaps put a round dowel across to curve the matting over. For an internal curve, fill it with a filler first.

 

[AEMD]

OK. Now I've had a look at the French version of Compass24 site.. does anyone have any bright ideas as to what I should buy? http://www.compass24.fr/web/catalog/shop/technique_peintures_reparation
The only West System stuff is SIX10 - any good? or should I get this: http://www.compass24.fr/web/catalog/shop/technique_peintures_reparation/5684814
or this: http://www.compass24.fr/web/catalog/shop/technique_peintures_reparation/4932706

 

[misterg]

Hi, I'm new to posting on the forum, though I joined ages ago.
I have a small problem with my Newbridge Venturer. It's a rare lift keel model, kept on Lake Cazaux in France,
The boat is on a swinging mooring, in fairly shallow water, and subject to a lot of pitching and tossing in the wake of passing motor boats.
Last year whilst sailing in a ( rare) decent breeze I noticed something felt odd. When we got back to the mooring I had a look down below and discovered that the internal GRP casing that contains the upper edge of the keel drop - plate when lifted to the uphaul in the cockpit that should have been attached for support to the starboard bulkhead had become detached. I bought some resin and some strand mat and set about attempting to re-fix the casing, but I have not a lot of confidence that this is a good enough repair.
I asked for a quote from a local-ish boat yard, and 400 -500 euros was the answer, which is sadly completely out of my budget.
I have some photos, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them here, but I'd be very grateful for any advice - I guess I still need to stay with support from just the one side as attaching it to both sides could cause stresses that may cause the casing to crack? Should I glass in a block of wood, or continue with my idea to put a support round the tail edge of the keel casing, as indicated by the piece of aluminium grille I started to attach?
In the mean time the boat is still on it's trailer awaiting a decision to launch or not.
Pics here: http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j75/daisy_dales/Boat/
Help.

I used to have a Venturer, but not a lift-keel.

1) Are you sure that the attachment you have marked with an arrow ("Detacher ici") is structural - it's difficult to tell, but it looks like it might have just been a temporary attachment from the boat's construction (if it looks like a single layer of cloth in mid-air then it isn't structural - I have seen these in various places in our Venturer.)

2) The bilge keeled Venturers had the keel mounting points stiffened with 'floors' made from fibreglass laid over foam(?) formers. I am aware of several boats where these 'floors' failed, allowing the hull / keel mountings to flex.

I feel it is likely that Newbridge adopted something similar for the keel box on your boat, and would be suspicious that the floors have failed, leading to the keel box movement that you're seeing (and the fracture in what is possibly an inconsequential area).

I think you need to check the structure around the keel box, in particular any transverse stiffeners. If any of these show signs of detaching or stress (soft, crazed appearance) then this is a problem. Post photos of these if you can.

The bonding between the hull and plywood bulkheads was very weak on our Venturer (detached from the plywood in many places). This would make me suspicious of the bonding on your boat. If there are any plywood stiffeners around your keel box, I would check the bonding very carefully (the areas where the fibreglass overlaps, and should stick to, the the wood).

3) Epoxy would be best for repairs. You can use chopped strand mat (CSM) but it ***MUST*** be suitable for use with epoxy this is less common than CSM that is only suitable for use with polyester. (If OldSaltOz responds, he is *The Man* on fibreglass repairs )

I'm sure it can be fixed DIY - It is straightforward enough to strengthen and repair floors, or to replace detached bonding, but I think you need to check all of the relevant structure first, and confirm the root cause and extent of any damage.

We enjoyed our Venturer

Andy

 

[srp]

Don't use chopped strand mat - it doesn't work with epoxy (unless you get a special sort which is not widely available).

Don't try to stipple the resin into the cloth - brush a generous coat of resin onto the repair area and then lay the cloth on top of it. This will help to hold it in position while you then wet it out - you don't have to use a brush either, a small foam roller or a spatula may work just as well, or maybe one of the plastic spreaders you get with polyfilla, wood filler etc.

Another useful technique is to make a layup on a polythene-covered board, then pick up the whole lot on the polythene and apply it face down onto the repair area.

Two more useful things I have picked up from others on here over the years - meths is a good solvent for cleaning up, and use digital scales to measure the resin and hardener accurately.

 

[Seajet]

Important

Do be sure to use eye, breathing & skin protection inc' forearms, and if in an enclosed space you really do need a mask & ventilation; been there and the results are not funny, decades later.

 

[AEMD]

Thanks for that Andy, I'll have a grovel around tomorrow and see if I can see any other problems, though I think that maybe the detachment is either due to the excess tossing around on the mooring, or perhaps shocks from trailing on the very poor roads round here. The keel is in direct unbuffered contact with the trailer, and even though I tow slowly, and it's not very far, it is impossible to avoid some bumps. They have however at last just re-done the worst bit of our 60 mile journey, so hopefully it should be less of a problem in future. Either way I think it needs re-attaching as you could see the gap opening up whilst sailing and I'd rather the keel casing didn't split for obvious reasons !

Here's our boat on a good day a few years ago at Rutland: http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j75/daisy_dales/wvverygood2enhanced.jpg

 

[misterg]

Hi,

"Trailer damage" was cited as the cause of the 'floors' (i.e. transverse stiffening members) failing in one Venturer we nearly bought (for two others, it was attributed to them being kept on a drying mooring).

If you're saying that the casing is visibly moving, it makes me even more concerned that there's been a structural failure somewhere. I don't think the bit you're trying to fix is particularly structural - I think it's a symptom of loss of stiffness elsewhere.

Out of interest, can you sight from fore and aft along the bottom of the hull, around where the keel box fits? Is there any hint of the hull being depessed by the weight of the boat sitting on the keel (box)? If/when the floors fail, the skin of the hull can flex.

Hopefully I'm being over-cautious

Andy

 

[CharlesSwallow]

I had one of those...

from 1983 to 91; sail no 14 -white hull with brown stripes. It was designed by Bill Dixon and what you have there is virtually a "Baby Moody"

It is the tube through which the centreplate lifting chain travels. It is not especially intended as any form of strengthening strut but does provide some extra rigidity. There is a sheave (pulley wheel) encased in that right angle. Be careful not to contaminate the sheave and prevent it turning if raw resin seeps through any cracks.

To do this job properly you really need the boat to be out of the water or at least standing on it's keel, dried out, as the slightest movement during the curing period of the GRP will ruin the repair. The constant "clunking" from the centreplate moving sideways would cause sufficient damage. Ah! You have it on a trailer- good.

Cut "chopped strand mat" into 50mm wide strips and wind these diagonally onto the pre-coated with resin, repair area, before impregnating with further resin. Four layers, each applied as the previous is just getting tacky should be sufficient. Finish with a final layer of "glass tissue" for a smooth finish but this might make a future purchaser suspicious as it will give a different texture to the repair area.

Layers of woven rovings or glass tape as alternatives are not to be recommended as these are much more prone to de-laminating in the future. DON'T use epoxy resin to impregnate the glass cloth, it doesn't "wet" the cloth properly. Certainly replace your(Excusez-moi!) "terrible bodge" of aluminium mesh with another strengthening fillet of CSM as it will help. You don't need to put anything across to the other side as the purpose of this "web" is more to protect the tube from displacement by clumsy humans stowing gear and the gear itself than from sailing stresses.

No health problems as others have suggested - they probably don't know what you and I know that the opening cockpit floor will provide VERY adequate ventillation!

Great little boats. We sailed ours across the channel from Poole several times and once onwards through the Brittany Canals to La Roche Bernard and to the Gulf of Morbihan.

I notice from your photos that you still have some plywood skin fitting backing plates. Change these for resin ones as the wooden ones, should they get wet will swell and force the outer flanges off the fittings, especially if you still have the original plastic ones on places like the speed log and echo sounder for example. We once nearly lost our boat due to this off of Poole.

I know that our old boat is now somewhere in france. She is called "Wild Venture". I note with interest that you, or someone has drawn an extra portlight in the coloured stripe in the cabin side on the builders drawing of your first picture. We actually fitted such portlights. Too much of a co-incidence maybe?

Chas

 

[srp]

Cut "chopped strand mat" into 50mm wide strips and wind these diagonally onto the pre-coated with resin, repair area, before impregnating with further resin. Four layers, each applied as the previous is just getting tacky should be sufficient. Finish with a final layer of "glass tissue" for a smooth finish but this might make a future purchaser suspicious as it will give a different texture to the repair area.

Layers of woven rovings or glass tape as alternatives are not to be recommended as these are much more prone to de-laminating in the future. DON'T use epoxy resin to impregnate the glass cloth, it doesn't "wet" the cloth properly. Certainly replace your(Excusez-moi!) "terrible bodge" of aluminium mesh with another strengthening fillet of CSM as it will help. You don't need to put anything across to the other side as the purpose of this "web" is more to protect the tube from displacement by clumsy humans stowing gear and the gear itself than from sailing stresses.

I bow to your greater knowledge of this design. However chopped strand mat and polyester resin are no good for repairs to existing grp. The bond between new and existing is poor, and if the area is subject to stress (as it obviously is) then the problem is going to reappear.

There is absolutely no doubt that epoxy resin and woven glass cloth are the correct way to effect this repair. The cloth has markers laid into the weave, and by alternating the angle of these in each layer as you go the finished repair will be incredibly strong, much stronger in my experience than a similar thickness csm layup.

 

[AEMD]

You have found us Chas . It is indeed Wild Venture, still named as such, but we changed the brown stripes to navy blue when we first bought her in 2002. She was at Woolverstone for sale with Blue Baker Yachts looking in rather sad condition. I guess you were the first owner? I understand she was the boat show boat?
We gave her a major tidy up and replaced lots of fittings and re-bedded everything that could be re-bedded and I recovered those horrible brown checkered cushions inside We also did majorr works to the trailer, replaced hitch, axles, tyres and wheels to make it better able to carry the boat - it was rated for 1500KGs, the outfit weighs 2200kgs, so I also had to buy a 4x4! I did an article for NAVA ( the owner's association) when we did the work if you're interested? There's lots of pictures.

I joined NAVA but did let my membership lapse when we moved to France.
Through NAVA I met another one of her owners, Steve Cronin, who perhaps bought her from you? He sold us the wind generator that he'd fitted to her some years before, it had been kicking round his garage for years.

She's not in bad nick now, though I must replace the cockpit locker cover, and the headlining is a bit sad in placces. I'm having difficulty sourcing 3/4" exterior ply here in France -and everything DIY or boaty costs the earth..
So your little boat is happy and reasonably well and in good hands in the SW of France

Thanks for the information
Anne

 

[AEMD]

I'll have a good look at the hull today. I don't think there is a problem with the keel to hull.
The movement was a very slight lateral movement when sailing in that rare stiff breeze ( it's usually nearer flat calm at Cazaux) which allowed the centreplate to apply some leverage on only one tack. It was the fact that I could only feel something odd on one tack that made me think 'keel'. The uphaul chain-tube has had some previous repair, but this isn't the problem, it's the casing below it, a 3" section of which is glassed to a bulkhead to aid rigidity.

 

[CharlesSwallow]

You have found us Chas . It is indeed Wild Venture, still named as such, but we changed the brown stripes to navy blue when we first bought her in 2002. She was at Woolverstone for sale with Blue Baker Yachts looking in rather sad condition. I guess you were the first owner? I understand she was the boat show boat?
We gave her a major tidy up and replaced lots of fittings and re-bedded everything that could be re-bedded and I recovered those horrible brown checkered cushions inside We also did majorr works to the trailer, replaced hitch, axles, tyres and wheels to make it better able to carry the boat - it was rated for 1500KGs, the outfit weighs 2200kgs, so I also had to buy a 4x4! I did an article for NAVA ( the owner's association) when we did the work if you're interested? There's lots of pictures.

I joined NAVA but did let my membership lapse when we moved to France.
Through NAVA I met another one of her owners, Steve Cronin, who perhaps bought her from you? He sold us the wind generator that he'd fitted to her some years before, it had been kicking round his garage for years.

She's not in bad nick now, though I must replace the cockpit locker cover, and the headlining is a bit sad in placces. I'm having difficulty sourcing 3/4" exterior ply here in France -and everything DIY or boaty costs the earth..
So your little boat is happy and reasonably well and in good hands in the SW of France

Thanks for the information
Anne

Small World!

Chas

 

[misterg]

I'll have a good look at the hull today. I don't think there is a problem with the keel to hull.
The movement was a very slight lateral movement when sailing in that rare stiff breeze ( it's usually nearer flat calm at Cazaux) which allowed the centreplate to apply some leverage on only one tack. It was the fact that I could only feel something odd on one tack that made me think 'keel'. The uphaul chain-tube has had some previous repair, but this isn't the problem, it's the casing below it, a 3" section of which is glassed to a bulkhead to aid rigidity.

Ah, OK.

I'm pretty sure I read an article or articles by Wild Venture's owners in the NAVA newsletter - I passed them all on to the new owners when we sold our Venturer so I can't check.

(Just to clarify the situation re: chopped strand glass mat - you can get "powder bonded" mat that is suitable for use with epoxy, but it will be described as such. Ordinary "emulsion bonded" doesn't wet out with epoxy and probably what you would end up with by default if you didn't specify otherwise. For what it's worth, if I were doing the repair, I would definitely use epoxy.)

Andy