Inner forestay with furler

[[2574]]

I wonder how possible it is to add an inner forestay on a bermudan sloop? I like the idea of having a big genoa on the outer forestay and a smaller sail on the inner forestay; great sail flexibility. I much prefer to sail with a jib than a much reduced genoa when the wind pipes up. The reality is that one never wants to unfurl the genoa to get it off the foil at the very moment when the wind strength is increasing so inevitably one makes do with a much reduced genoa. One obvious issue is tacking and gybing the genoa; presumably one has to furl to tack?

These pictures of a Rustler 44: http://www.rustleryachts.com/44-photos.php (I think it's Ex-Solent boy's boat) shows the sort of rig I am thinking of.

Does anybody have experience of doing this?

rob

 

[npf1]

Hi Rob,

I've done it on mine, putting a second furler about 8-10 inches behind the existing furler and then modifying the smaller of the two headsails I already had. There was quite a lot involved in getting it done, but when I had finally sourced the parts, the fitting was super quick. Details:

1/ Custom made bracket for bottom of forestay @ £800 (there was a lot to this as it needed to fit around bowsprit and have provision for a gennaker furler).

2/ Riggers fitted new sheave box, tang on the mast (done with the mast still standing), new forestay, halyard exit & clutch. Cost incl some parts (forestay, swages, rigging screw & tang) about £1k.

3/ New sheave box, halyard & shackle, new lewmar clutch, new Harken double furling blocks (3 of) as now have two furling lines running down the side deck, new Spinlock double jammer for furling lines. All sourced on fleabay for about £300/£350 in total.

4/ Second furler, a little used Profurl NC42, got a bargain at £500 but took a while to find.

5/ Sail modification - about £120.

So a lot to it, but it was definitely worth it as there's been a step change in sailing performance when shorthanded (like you, we normally sail with just the two of us).

As for why I bothered ... we have a 140% and a 110% headsail. As it's such a bear to drop the 140% (huge & v.heavy @ >60kg) at the top of it's range and then hoist the 110%, I had not used the 140% for several years, reducing light wind ability by quite a margin. It's now fantastic to be able to unfurl the right sail for the conditions and I reckon average cruising speed has benefited by more than a knot and, perhaps more importantly, engine use has reduced markedly too.

I've still got a few finishing touches to do to get the gennaker furler all sorted and then I'm hoping for another step change, as that's another sail that only gets used when there's a football team on board, which isn't very often.

BTW - if you decide to go ahead, give me a shout as I think I have some bits left over that might be useful to you (furling blocks & jammer blocks).

Nigel

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I have one on mine: used for storm sails (as you say, you don't want to unfurl to drop in very windy conditions) and for twin headsail downwind sailing.

It stows by the mast when not in use and clips onto a wire strop when you need to rig it.

 

[johnlilley]

Just need to make sure the deck is strong enough as most decks are designed to withstand downward loading better than upward loads. In some cases it pays to fit an adjustable tension wire or strut as close as possible in line with the pull of the stay & attach to the centre line of the hull, but usually it interferes with the accommodation. Alternatively reinforce the deck at that point but not all boats can have a highly loaded inner stay without some form of mod. However it does depend how far aft the inner stay is to be positioned.
John Lilley

 

[Tomahawk]

I have done similar onnthe cat.. It would be impossible to drop the 130% in a blow when sailing short handed..

We have an inner staysail using only the secondary genoa halyard.. I put a turning fitting on the mast about three feet below the forestay.. The biggest problem so far is the main genoa and staysail halyards rubbing against each other.. (this was a retrofit).., The actual sail is only 18msq.. down from 35 formthe genoa... but I only use itmbeating to wind in lots of puff...

 

[Rossynant]

I see Your boat is Nauticat - is there a two spreader rig? This would make it simple to install classic cutter arrangement, inner forestay more back, connected at upper spreaders. Aft shrouds are needed from there too, in case there aren't. Then you have also possibility of flying both sails together, and staysail set lower, inside, nice for a gale.

 

[Three kings]

Are you looking for a classic cutter rig as Rossynant describes, or adding a Solent stay. If it's the former then it is a very versatile rig which allows you to go 'up and down the gears' so to speak.

Mine has a Furlex 300 on the inner stay so when it's time for a second reef in the main, the headsail is furled and the staysail unfurled. The boat is balanced and still has the power required to cope with sea conditions.

My staysail is cut small specifically to act as a heavy weather sail and not to gain any extra speed. In fact, it only adds an extra half knot if flown in ideal conditions. If additional performance is your objective, then the Solent rig might be a better option.

Have a rigger advise you on the need for running backstays/checkstays. With the Solent rig, if you keep the inner forestay mast attachment point close to the existing forestay then you might get away with it. A cutter will almost always need runners, particularly if you use the staysail in 25 knots plus. IMHO it's hard to beat the flexibility of a cutter.

 

[Tomahawk]

Nauticat!?!?!?!?

I have ammended my profile....

It is a carbon fibre wing mast. The attqchment for the solent is simply a saddle added to the front of the mast..

For a normal ali mast I would recommend using runners to support that part of the stick..

 

[Xcinquemila]

Most interesting discussion.
I am in the middle of my project, bought a XC50, with innerstay + selftack hardware.

Was in auckland talking with the NS guys regarding the cutting of the sails and the way to handle them.
The boat
follow the link you can see the boats pictures.

So here I stand, the mast is still to be made, ofcourse the basic running and rigging is already set-up.
Question here also is would one choose to furl the inner.
All my fronts are laidout to furl, the gen will be with a one line furling. The flyers with continuos furl, so the question is also to me, how to furl , continues, or single line.

I have on the link also posted the sails which are on order, all they told me in auckland is the cut of the inner is most important to have either advantage with to fly it with the Gen or alone in rough sea mode. Their conclusion is make it 98% , and a long boy style to fill the vortex as much as possible. The sail it self 75 weight is enough NS 400 series for cruisers.

All in all, secound point which was made, be aware of having a fixed inner stay or removable, the latter in sail and boat management is the best, however make sure of the tensions on the back stay and curve you pull in the mast.

 

[Rossynant]

Nauticat!?!?!?!?

Ha this was for OP, he's the one asking. Would be interesting to see Nauticat with fiber stick, though

 

[Tomahawk]

Forgot to mention..
the solent is hoisted rolled up... then pulled out... it is rolled back in to drop it whichnthen gives a clear foredect for tacking..

Not sure a wing mast on a Nauticat would be worthwhile?

 

[[2574]]

Thanks for all the replies which I will take time to digest. I think I'm after a cutter rig if I can get one. Yes she has a two spreader Selden rig and I currently have a babystay and running checkstays. People are expressing surprise at me considering this for a Nauticat - she's not the motor sailor type Nauticat but a pilot house. When Nauticat is mentioned most people assume the motor sailors are being discussed. Picture attached (if it works).

Thanks

rob

 

[knuterikt]

Just need to make sure the deck is strong enough as most decks are designed to withstand downward loading better than upward loads. In some cases it pays to fit an adjustable tension wire or strut as close as possible in line with the pull of the stay & attach to the centre line of the hull, but usually it interferes with the accommodation. Alternatively reinforce the deck at that point but not all boats can have a highly loaded inner stay without some form of mod. However it does depend how far aft the inner stay is to be positioned.
John Lilley

Some pictures showing how it can be solved, on my boat it's placed so far forward that it's inside the anchor locker.

double pad eye, furler for the free flying solent jib

Backing plate with attachment for turnbuckle

Trough bolt with eye nut on the inside for attaching the turnbuckle

 

[Ric]

I wonder how possible it is to add an inner forestay on a bermudan sloop? I like the idea of having a big genoa on the outer forestay and a smaller sail on the inner forestay; great sail flexibility. I much prefer to sail with a jib than a much reduced genoa when the wind pipes up. The reality is that one never wants to unfurl the genoa to get it off the foil at the very moment when the wind strength is increasing so inevitably one makes do with a much reduced genoa. One obvious issue is tacking and gybing the genoa; presumably one has to furl to tack?

These pictures of a Rustler 44: http://www.rustleryachts.com/44-photos.php (I think it's Ex-Solent boy's boat) shows the sort of rig I am thinking of.

Does anybody have experience of doing this?

rob

I have just done something similar to my 31ft sloop and very happy with the results.

The problem with two fixed stays is that it then becomes very difficult to adequately tension the working stay, tacking is a bit of a hassle, and you still only gain one extra "gear" unless you are also prepared to roll up your staysail to bodge a stormsail.

As others have pointed out, mounting a flying inner forestay and hanked sails obviates these problems, but it is quite a faff on the foredeck mounting the and tensioning the forestay, hanking on the sail, then hoisting it - only to find (as you do in the Med where I sail) that the wind has dropped and you need to go back to the main genoa.

I therefore mounted a system with sails on a Karver cassette. The advantage of the Karver cassette is that the sail is mounted on an anti-torsion dyneema cord, the luff of which can then be tightened via a dyneema halyard doubled through the swivel at the head sail, and then lead back to a coaming winch. The result is that you can get the staysail (or storm sail) luff extremely taught.

With the sail on a cassette, it is easy just to roll up drop the entire sail and cassette into the forepeak and revert back to a classic sloop if I am going to be tacking a lot say on a day-sail around the bay.

I have both a staysail (about 50% of Genoa area) and a stormsail (about 20%), and it is very easy and quick to furl them, drop them into the forepeak, and switch to the other. There is no messing around trying to flake sails in a breeze as they just roll up neatly. I also mounted entirely separate tracks and towable genoa cars so that I can control everything from the cockpit. It really transforms the boat completely because I can now satisfyingly sail in anything up to storm conditions, rather than lying on my ear and making lots of leeway which is always the case with a rolled up genoa.

It was pretty expensive to sort it all out with two new sails, the Karver, and building the reinforcement for the tack. But very pleased with the result.

PS - just read the earlier post where somebody else has used a furler. My set up differs in that the padeye is set further back, behind the chain locker. This made the underdeck reinforcement a bit more complicated, but it means that I can sail with both sails in place most of the time on an ocean passage where I don't need to tack too often. It is still possible to tack with the staysail or stormsail in place - just a bit slower. I also added another set of tracks for the staysail, rather than just using the existing genoa tracks so that I get a much narrower sheeting angle which is a lot better for going upwind.