Incompetant Seamen

Generalisations....

Russian or Polish Master etc. etc...... please no generalisations or racist remarks !

I am a Brit, ex Merch. etc. etc and I object to the generalisation that was given here. I live and work amongst Russians etc. and also have had the experience of sailing with many nationalities ..... we had 14 different nationalities on one vessel I was on .....

Yes cheap crews, but biggest problem is cheap-skate companies.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
Certification .... FoC = UK

A lot of 3rd world countries have UK Certification standards as the basis of their maritime requirements. And in fact such as Bahamas Certificates used to be issued in London !!!!

The UK is actually now a FoC .... as Isle of Man etc. has now taken a significant place in Shipping Circles ..... so bang goes that one on practical terms as well !!!

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
I may be being simplistic,however, when I take to the helm of my boat IAM RESPONSIBLE for those on board and around me. If I delegate the helm I make sure that the person is briefed and aware of their duties IAM STILL RESPONSIBLE.

The United Nations can bring resolutions for war. what about the safety of humans and sealife and the businesses that rely on tourism?

Why can't the UN bring some laws to make the Captains and owners responsible?

Its not just down to the British to sort this out, we should start in Europe.

Off my soapbox after a few glasses of red stuff

V8's rule!
 
Re: Forgot to add .....

I might be wrong here but are'nt these big beasties largly automated these days and hence the current "masters" find themselves in the job of button pushers, don't know if this makes a difference in this case or not, I havent a clue as to the complexities faced by the skippers of large cargo vessels compared to us in our little yachts, but at least we can set our own route on the day, I mean how automated are they? As far as routes etc.. are concerned?

Buck

Relax, life is just a game.
 
Re: Forgot to add .....

Complex or not, the "Masters" still have a responsibility for their crew, ship and the people around them.

Sorry, I forgot, no one is responsible for anything anymore.

Lets call claims direct! must be worth a claim for someone.

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO SOCIETY?????

V8's rule!
 
Re: Forgot to add .....

They are not robotic machines and still have the guidance of human hand. We in fact on yachts have better auto guidance ... where we can set the GPS to steer the auto-pilot .... Big shiops generally are steered manually in close waters, by auto deep sea .... course changes made by officer on watch / Master whoever has the con of the vessel.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
Re: Compulsory Pilots

Is there some middle way (sorry) with this.

Can't help thinking of one occasion a few years ago at Gatwick airport watching 7 aircraft all on final approach to a single runway. Landed about one every 2 minutes and were interspersed with aircraft taking off. Very impresive

Would a similar level of discipline be possible with ships in such places as English Channel and Southern North Sea.

Perhaps be given specific course and speed and can only change from it with permission from a marine version of ATC. A sort of remote control pilotage I suppose.

I guess crossing would be a problem, short of a dimension, but perhaps not insoluble.
 
How possible would it be to have a navigation unit similar to air traffic control just for the channel, multi-funded by the countries that would be most affected by any mishap ie France, UK, Spain, Holland. The cost’s spread could make it viable!

Wishbone
 
Re: Merchant Shipping Standards

"Moving on to Officer Certification "
A company based in a middle eastern country had a need for a cheap Master Mariner to take command of a small survey ship to see out a contract. I was the only body in the staff bar when the boss came looking. A quick visit to a Goverment office, a cup of tea and a plain brown envelope later and I was a MM with the paperwork to prove it.
That was in '72, think it still happens?

IanW

Vertue 203, Patience
 
VT system ....

France and UK already operate a system in combination that advises and looks after traffic in the Dover Straits - the most congested part.
No system can actually take away the human part - not even in the air, so what improvement can there be ?

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
You lucky ....

It used to be a briown envelope to the issuing officer !! But hoenstly it rarely happens nowadays. BUt like all things ..... you can buy a driving licence, a Ships Certificate etc. in some places whatever happens.
When it comes to Masters on ocean going vessels - they often do not come from the same source as the other m,embers of the crew. They are often Company men commanding agency supplied crew.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
Are we living in a sleep deprived society ?

Are we living in a sleep deprived society ?

I have just finished a very interesting book called ‘Sleep Thieves’ by Stanley Coren. It cites many instances where lack of sleep accounts for most of the world’s human disasters. Here’s one on the Exxon Valdez.

Most of the public and press coverage about the incident focused on reports of the captain who was drunk, in his cabin and not on duty at the bridge. The real culprit, however, seems to be a case of sleep debt due to long shifts, which finally produced an inescapable sleep pressure at the low point of the daily activity cycle for the man who was on the bridge.

According to evidence at the hearings, Exxon had been making personnel cutbacks in all areas, including their merchant marine staff. The results were predictable. With relatively understaffed crews, longer work shifts became necessary .On the Exxon Valdez, work periods of 12 to 14 hours a day became quite routine. The inevitable disrupted sleep patterns caused an increasing sleep debt, and the crew was continually complaining about fatigue. It was in the small hours of the morning that the third mate, was at the wheel of the ship ( the worst time for humans) seems to have fallen asleep. The ship ran aground on a reef of the Alaskan coast.
 
Several posting have drawn comparisons with the aviation world, the world from which I retired a couple of years ago..... Professional Pilots have to undergo rigorous training before they get a basic Commercial Licence which is then upgraded with experience to a full Airline Transport Licence. Each year you have have to undergo two Simulator Checks plus a further "Route Check" to see that you haven't picked up any bad habits in normal operations. We also had to fill in a technical questionaire and there was a day of Survival Equipment and Procedures every year.

The potential consequences of incompetence on the sea are no less dramatic than in the air and I see no reason why professional seamen (Officers anyway) shouldn't undergo a similar regime of checks and ongoing training..... though of course the practicalities of carrying it out and policing it would be difficult.

In the air there is a system of "Controlled", "Advisory" and "Uncontrolled" airspace and you cannot fly in Controlled Airspace without the required licence and training. You also have to have a Secondary Radar Transponder so that Air Traffic Control can see you and see details of your identity and of your height. Of course you also have to have radio contact with the relevant controller. I think there is little choice but that busy areas such as the Dover Straights should be controlled in a similar way..... The obvious difference being that in the air, "uncontrolled traffic" can fly underneath controlled airspace whereas we in our little boats can't really dive underwater! However, though it would be a serious pain in the backside, I think it would be a price worth paying if uncontrolled traffic (which would include us) were not allowed to cross the channel in the narrowest and busiest stretches, for instance wherever there is a traffic separation scheme in operation...... it would be a bit like walking down the road till you get to a pedestrian crossing.

I realise that such regulation would bring howls of protest from many quarters but the actions of a few "Incompetent Seamen" around the world have shown that we simply can't afford to do nothing...... Would you rather add a few miles to your voyage or have two umpteen thousand ton oil tankers collide/sink in the Dover Straights and then have a string of passenger ferries run into them? Don't laugh, it could happen.
 
Airline licensing ..... US style !

Florida and other states host the 'Offshore Licence' schools ..... my father and my brother have been in the airline world for all their working lives .... in fact my Father was senior Govt man in the business and they used to talk about it often !!! .... the schools provide training for anyone with a notable sum of dollars. They issue a certificate for Commercial Air use, but US regulations forbid the pilot from ever entering US airspace !!!!! Not true ..... Sorry but VERY TRUE ! Many of these pilots ended up flying in the Arabian Gulf, Africa etc.

I know one case of where my Father was helping one guy .... but finally he was 'banned' by Air Licencing in UK from attempting Certification again ..... he paid his money .... next was flying a HS125 around the Gulf .....

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
Undermanned ships ...

Been a fact for years now .....

I started in 70 .... average was 35-40 guys on ship.
Left in late 80's ... average was 20.

Size and complexity of ships increased, manning went down.

But the Exxon Valdez ..... 3rd Mate on the Wheel ??????? He would have been conning the vessel, another would be actually steering.
One of the contributing factors which the US Govt. very neatly sidestepped was the lack of Radar coverage at that point, despite the serious navigation risks at that point in the estuary. The coverage ended far short of this point ..... The channel was also reduced .....their were a lot of factors that were additional to the 'sleep deprivation' that we all felt in my latter years at sea.

I spent a significant time lightering in Mexican Gulf .... 20hr days were common ..... our turn rounds were unbelievable and we NEVER stopped for the 3 months we were on board.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
 
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