Inboard sheeting provision

[zoidberg]

As part of my refurb'ing of a tough ould Cutlass27, I'm fitting an inner stay on which to hang a 'Solent' jib on a furling foil for brisk breezes. I reckon this will be about 95%-100% of the inner foretriangle, and I'm told by sailmakers it's 'up to me.'

I'm now thinking about where provision should be made for sheeting of this furling/reefing jib. There are no conventional tracks on the coachroof - the original design had but one headstay, and simple tracks just inboard from the toerail.
There ARE a pair of deckeyes on the coachroof each side, bolted through at ~293cm and ~315cm respectively from the new tack point, and 43/55cm off the centreline. The mastfoot is 250cm from that tackpoint.
That gives notional sheeting 'angles' of ~8 amd ~10 degrees respectively.

I could clip sheaveblocks onto those deckeyes, or some arrangement with Low Friction Rings.
I could even fit short transverse tracks - I have the track and cars spare - but perhaps wouldn't want to do that until I had 'pinned down' the sail dimensions and sheeting requirements.

What does the 'hive mind' think about creative use of those existing deckeyes?

 

[flaming]

As part of my refurb'ing of a tough ould Cutlass27, I'm fitting an inner stay on which to hang a 'Solent' jib on a furling foil for brisk breezes. I reckon this will be about 95%-100% of the inner foretriangle, and I'm told by sailmakers it's 'up to me.'

I'm now thinking about where provision should be made for sheeting of this furling/reefing jib. There are no conventional tracks on the coachroof - the original design had but one headstay, and simple tracks just inboard from the toerail.
There ARE a pair of deckeyes on the coachroof each side, bolted through at ~293cm and ~315cm respectively from the new tack point, and 43/55cm off the centreline. The mastfoot is 250cm from that tackpoint.
That gives notional sheeting 'angles' of ~8 amd ~10 degrees respectively.

I could clip sheaveblocks onto those deckeyes, or some arrangement with Low Friction Rings.
I could even fit short transverse tracks - I have the track and cars spare - but perhaps wouldn't want to do that until I had 'pinned down' the sail dimensions and sheeting requirements.

What does the 'hive mind' think about creative use of those existing deckeyes?

LFR on a “floating” setup.
Keep it simple.

 

[zoidberg]

Thanks. It'd need to be simple.....

 

[john_morris_uk]

Use the deckeyes and see how it sets? You can always add/modify in the light of your experience of what’s actually happening to airflow over the sail once you’re sailing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

LFR on a “floating” setup.
Keep it simple.

This has got to be the best way. I’d have the LFRs spliced into the control line, pass that through a snap shackle block that clips into the deck eye, tail to a clutch/cleat, maybe winchable to adjust. Then you can work out your best sheeting angle range, and decide where best, or whether to fit your track, or retain the LFRs permanently. The setup might easily be good enough. And no new holes drilled.

 

[dunedin]

Any decent sailmaker would advise on best sheeting position. And this needs to be defined before they design and make the sail. If move later won't set correctly.
If sailmaker not interested in sheeting position change sailmaker

 

[Channel Sailor]

if you are having a new sail made then I would want the sheeting position to be right for the job the sail is to do, not to make the sail size and shape to suit what just happens to be a possible sheeting position. This is the race forum so I am assuming the resulting performance needs to satisfy a mindset that wants a boat to sail efficiently.

My first thought would be 8 degrees sounds too narrow for a Cutlass in a “Breeze”. Reasons, 1. hull shape may not benefit from a 8 degree angle. 2. heel/leeway due to narrow slot to the main. But hey, I only sailed a Cutlass maybe three times and that was 35 years or more ago. Why Solent style, because if just for the cruise home from a race then why not a Yankee Cut. I would guess if you desire a high cut foot and clew then your sheeting turning block is going to be about where it is for the No1 genoa anyway. So use then existing genoa track. Conversely, if this sail has increased your handicap and you want to lead the fleet in the results when it is a F5/6 then I would let the sail maker design the sail while endeavouring to locate the optimum position for the turning block,

I would agree with above, using LF Rings with control lines and aero elastics is good plan to find the best slot angle. Though in my experience one needs to think about the damage a flogging friction ring can do when tacking slowly in a F6.

On my yacht I have a somewhat outboard genoa/jib track with ball bearing turning blocks on the track, plus a friction ring as an inhauler on the sheet to use when I want the slot narrower. On my lighter yacht typically in windy weather I have the slot wider because I am reducing heel and wanting power to punch into the waves. This results in the inhaulers only being used in light air.

if solo or short handed and windy then again I tend to have the slot wider to reduce heel/leeway. But If I have crew on the rail then the boat copes better with more power, it is quicker so the inhaulers have their use once more to fine tune the shape and the slot.

My Inhaulers are also used to help reduce the rub of the sheet on the guard rail when going downwind without a spinnaker (Unless the sheets are re roved under guard rail).

For my low foot genoa I have fitted wheels on the guard rail to help the sail over the guard rail.

 

[zoidberg]

Thanks, all. It's about efficiency.... and, reading the FULL title of this sub-forum, here's where I'd expect the experience and tech knowhow to reside.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks, all. It's about efficiency.... and, reading the FULL title of this sub-forum, here's where I'd expect the experience and tech knowhow to reside.

That’s why the sailmaker MUST be chosen based upon expertise and MUST be involved in determining optimum sheeting position. If not they clearly are not at all concerned about efficiency.
PS. mind you with a smallish boat like that personally I wouldn’t spend my money on a second furler and all that extra weight and windage aloft, but instead would spend a bit of money on a really good quality jib on the main forestay, with foam luff for efficiency reefed.

 

[zoidberg]

Aye, 'dunedin', I understand your perspective, thanks. I won't argue that quality hanked-on sails should do a good job, perhaps a rather better job, than what I'm planning - but there is another dimension which I have to consider. No, I have to encompass....

I've been sailing off and on for 50-odd years. I've changed headsails on boats large and small, day and night, in good weather and bad.... so I have enough of an apprenticeship to know with some certainty that I have now become too 'crook' in the knees and hips to do a swift, efficient and above all safe foredeck job offshore, in all likely conditions, singlehanded.

It's a seamanship thing.

I need to ensure I can furl and/or reef headsails as conditions dictate without the NECESSITY of visiting the foredeck.

The boat came with half-a-dozen 'hanked' headsails in good, condition, intended for the single headstay. They would certainly do the job as you envisage for some time to come.... but it's likely I couldn't. Consequently, I must adapt the boat and its gear to the reality. And absorb the costs.....

 

[dunedin]

Aye, 'dunedin', I understand your perspective, thanks. I won't argue that quality hanked-on sails should do a good job, perhaps a rather better job, than what I'm planning - but there is another dimension which I have to consider. No, I have to encompass....

I've been sailing off and on for 50-odd years. I've changed headsails on boats large and small, day and night, in good weather and bad.... so I have enough of an apprenticeship to know with some certainty that I have now become too 'crook' in the knees and hips to do a swift, efficient and above all safe foredeck job offshore, in all likely conditions, singlehanded.

It's a seamanship thing.

I need to ensure I can furl and/or reef headsails as conditions dictate without the NECESSITY of visiting the foredeck.

The boat came with half-a-dozen 'hanked' headsails in good, condition, intended for the single headstay. They would certainly do the job as you envisage for some time to come.... but it's likely I couldn't. Consequently, I must adapt the boat and its gear to the reality. And absorb the costs.....

For clarity I was not suggesting a hanked on sail.
One high quality sail on a furler, with foam luff, would be my recommendation. I have not changed sails on a foredeck for more than 2 decades and 30k miles. And never bothered with a separate solent stay.

 

[zoidberg]

That's interesting, 'dunedin'. Perhaps my assumptions are wrong. Perhaps I should ask you some questions, via PM.

 

[Blueboatman]

Bit wordy:
If I had a hank on jib that looked about right and fitted on the Solent stay , I would go with that for the first season.

Why??

Because- you can add cars to the existing Genoa tracks and a lfr pulling the sheeting angle in toward -say-the foot of the mast (or these deck eye bolts which you describe but fail ( sic) to show in a deck layout photo ..)
And tweak and learn to yer hearts content.
Thus you tweak and define what sheet angles will broadly work. Refine tweak play refine. Dial in zero in on what the boat will ultimately accept ..before setting something expensive in stone . As it were ?..

And only then would I get a sailmaker down on board : “ This is what I found works , best I could , where do you advise we go from here please ?” ..’ kinda thing

And I write this from some experience of these things . The Rustler 36s had a variety of arrangements over the years so I played until I got what I wanted . Which was not added tracks on the coachroof. Nor a second furler. But I could reef the staysail foot and fit a usefully bigger sail on it too for benign downwind stuff..

With a simple downhaul on your staysail luff and thehalyard fed back to the cockpit , I see no reason why you should ever need to go forward except briefly with the boat bearing away, to set up the actual Solent stay /hanked on sail in its bag.

Of course it is tempting to try to design /discuss /commission something perfect right off the bat but realistically how likely is it that you ( we?) will nail it spot on, before the boat goes in the water ?

Is there an owners association btw where someone else has done all the donk work ?

 

[Aquaboy]

did exactly what you are proposing, filled in the triangle as much as possibe but mounted it on a boom. Best mod so far. Self tacking is one of those things, until you try it you'll never really understand how you survived without. Even off the wind its the first reduction, lose the genoa and its often just enough and saves reefing the main. Running you can use it in combination with the genoa which I pole out.

 

[zoidberg]

That's an interesting option. B'b'm.....

I've not tried for photos, for the thing is covered by a heavy tarpaulin-with-hoops; it's dirty and awkward getting under there and VERY cold.

There IS an owners' group, but no-one AFAIK who has fitted an inner stay.

 

[Aquaboy]

Glad to see i'm not the only one who doesn't do football...