Inboard Engines...are they really THAT bad??

[Applescruffs]

Reading the recent posts regarding old boats with inboard engines and how no-one should even think about taking one on got me to thinking.......

I'm guessing that the 'average' inboard diesel for the 'average' sail boat....yacht type thing ...will only be in use for, say, 50 hours a year? ...of course some a lot more....and some.....a hell of a lot less...if at all !

So....in the course of the sailing season these diesels are running for less time than I am using the engine in my car in a month and in the case of a 40ft artic, a week.

If we take 50 hours use per year and multiply by 20 we get a total use of 1000 hours in 20 years......... Now I don't know about you but if my car engine was declared knckered after only 1000 hours motoring I'd guess I'd be pretty pissed, so comparing the hours run why do we accept that from a boat engine??

Marine diesel are built like the proverbial and should last forever.....apperently they don't...

Must be our fault then?

PS: excuse the maths but I hope you get the idea?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

It's often some form of corrosion that damages them, which is age related and not running hours, and then finally consigned to the scrapheap because of the cost or unavailability of spares. My DV10 was perfectly repairable when it suffered corrosion, but the cost of the 2 parts needed was £1000's, and hence uneconomic.

 

[Poignard]

They're not all bad. My BUKH engine is 31 years old.

 

[Applescruffs]

It's often some form of corrosion that damages them,


But it's a boat engine designed for use in a boat...

I guess that the designers think that any problems will arise , maybe, 5 years down the line when the warranty has expired....but with possibly only a few hundred hours use on the clock....'aint right is it?

 

[JumbleDuck]

So....in the course of the sailing season these diesels are running for less time than I am using the engine in my car in a month and in the case of a 40ft artic, a week.

The conditions under which a yacht's auxiliary are expected to work are not great. Confined to a damp locker in a salty atmosphere and then run at relatively high power for short periods. As Mr McDoon says, it's corrosion and time which kill 'em, rather than running hours.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But it's a boat engine designed for use in a boat...

The trouble is that it often isn't. It's often a tractor engine, or a compressor engine, or a generator engine with some more-or-less seawater compatible components bolted on. That, of course, doesn't excuse Mr Yanmar from running two thin-walled mild steel oil pipes directly under the drip of warm seawater from the cooling water pump on a 1GM10.

Even the big boys don't escape. From occasional glances at the motorboat forum it seems that they don't expect their engines to last even a thousand hours, and that with much repair. Mind you, I saw a reference there to adjusting the tappets on a new Volvo. Hello? Tappets? This century?

 

[Applescruffs]

I still say that if it's sold as a boat engine then it should be fit for purpose.....

Now I'm beginning to think it's my fault....lack of maintenence......lack of use.....y

eah...it's all my fault....

what WAS I thinking ?.....putting a boat engine in a boat?

 

[l'escargot]

It is the lack of use that kills them generally. Work boat engines and boats that are used regularly, along with proper maintenance, last well.

 

[Tranona]

I still say that if it's sold as a boat engine then it should be fit for purpose.....

Now I'm beginning to think it's my fault....lack of maintenence......lack of use.....y

eah...it's all my fault....

what WAS I thinking ?.....putting a boat engine in a boat?

You need to put things in perspective. Most of the engines that feature in these disaster stories are more than 30 years old and are 50 or more year old designs. They are seawater cooled and made in very small numbers (compared with automotive engines). They operate in less than ideal conditions of short runs interspersed with long idle periods in salt laden atmospheres. Add in the neglect which comes from multiple owners it is not surprising they start to give problems, and then become uneconomic to repair as spares are so expensive.

Contrast that with the same engines used in a commercial high use setting and you will find similar, more modern engines running over 10000 hours without problems as in well used charter boats. My Volvo did over 3000 hours in its first 7 years as a charter boat - but only 500 or so in the following 4 years. Virtually trouble free and runs the same as it did when new.

So, in a sense, it is your fault. Think of another mechanical product that suffers such abuse and still works after 30 years.

Suspect also that in the future the later designs of freshwater cooled engines will last even longer as the main cause of premature failure has been reduced by keeping seawater away from the main engine - and engine compartments of modern boats are relatively warm and dry compared with many older boats.

 

[alan_d]

They're not all bad. My BUKH engine is 31 years old.

+1 (Well, mine is 32)

 

[cliff]

They're not all bad. My BUKH engine is 31 years old.

Ah, you have a new one then - 'tis not even run in yet - I've said it before - marinised tractor engines are the devil's spawn - get a pukka marine engine - get a Bukh.

 

[nimbusgb]

25 year old perkins, a 50 year old design. 6000 hours, possibly 7000 now. Starts on the button, runs like a singer sewing machine, leaks a bit of oil round the rear seal but thats normal for these.

A quarter century of abuse. Sounds fit fir purpose to me.

 

[SteveTibbetts]

Most of my YSE8 is 39 years old and is so simple that the (mostly expensive) parts can generally be replaced by a competent DIYer. I also believe that if it fell out the bottom of the boat it would keep running and make it to harbour on its own.

Although I'd love a multi cylinder modern engine they do seem a tad fussy and complicated

 

[chinita]

I have recently bought an LM with a DV20.

Very pleased with the state of the engine and wonder how much this has to with the fact that it is in a GRP box - for soundproofing.

It is bloody quiet too!

 

[Robert Wilson]

PLEASE, don't talk so loudly about all this. My Kubota 13 HP is a venerable old lump and very sensitive. If it hears this sort of talk it will immediately have the vapours and expire.

Ssssssshhhhhh, please.

 

[chrishelen]

Ah, you have a new one then - 'tis not even run in yet - I've said it before - marinised tractor engines are the devil's spawn - get a pukka marine engine - get a Bukh.

or a Sabb, mine is nearly 40 years old, was rebuilt by a Sabb outfit in 1999 at great expense, runs like a singer sewing machine.

 

[jwilson]

As broker, I tend to find that an engine that starts almost instantly with no preheat, with virtually no visible smoke, and runs smoothly, is usually a Yanmar on an ex-charter boat. Buyers of course go very wobbly about having 3,000 or 6,000 hours running, possibly (oh horrors) at high revs. The Volvos that are hard used also start easily and run well but do smoke a bit.

Amongst the older engines, the Mercedes OMs seem totally indestructible, and we sold a boat with it's original 50+ year old Sabb still running beautifully, though the cold start was a bit of a complex ritual - though it did always start easily once you'd done the oilcan job.

In a yacht, it is almost impossible to wear out a diesel. You can however kill it quickly with lack of use, SHORT RUNS, light loading and poor maintenance. The other thing that kills raw water cooled engines eventually is internal corrosion.

 

[dylanwinter]

the fear.. the fear

I confess I loved the Beast.....

for the first three years it was wonderful

power, warmth, electricity

I even came to enjoy the sound of her voice when running at low revs

I am currently cutting the films about North Norfolk and the Wash

I hear the engine chunking along beautifully - and then I come across some footage I shot when it was being a bad engine

and it all comes flooding back

I did not much like the smells it generated

I was frightened of the diesel bug

I hated the cutlass gland that ensured that the bilges always had water in them

I hated the fact that everytime something went wrong or needed replacing I had to start working out how to source the replacement bits

I felt very vulnerable to lobster pots and stray ropes

three occasions when I got into serious trouble because of stuff getting around the prop - an outboard is no problem

I love the idea that I can carry a spare outboard - that I have two more in the garage and that further replacements are only a short ebay browse away

maintnenence in the shed is much, much easier than on my knees in a tiny space under the cockpit floor


of course my views are completely distorted by my circumstances

a 50 year old boat and an engine of unknown age (I had thought it was only 100 hours old when I bought the boat but Applescruffs says his engineer believes that the beast was not all it seemed),

a big project involving a lot of miles away from home where all the right tools are

in commission all year,

a Volvo and all the high customer care that entails,

lots of lobster pots and sailing in unknown waters

unknown mechanics (as an itinerant) you are never going to be at the top of his list of priorities,

not enough finances to pay for the sorts of costs involved in an inboard problem.

All I can say to you guys who are bragging about your wonderful old engines.....

I too used to brag about the Beast and my 50 year old installation

may the good days roll on forever for you guys and I hope your engines outlive you and continue to give you many happy years of service

but for me.... until I win the football pools or KTL suddenly starts earning money - then I am an outboard man from here on in


Dylan

 

[Lakesailor]

It is the lack of use that kills them generally. Work boat engines and boats that are used regularly, along with proper maintenance, last well.

As broker, I tend to find that an engine that starts almost instantly with no preheat, with virtually no visible smoke, and runs smoothly, is usually a Yanmar on an ex-charter boat. Buyers of course go very wobbly about having 3,000 or 6,000 hours running, possibly (oh horrors) at high revs. The Volvos that are hard used also start easily and run well but do smoke a bit.

Amongst the older engines, the Mercedes OMs seem totally indestructible, and we sold a boat with it's original 50+ year old Sabb still running beautifully, though the cold start was a bit of a complex ritual - though it did always start easily once you'd done the oilcan job.

In a yacht, it is almost impossible to wear out a diesel. You can however kill it quickly with lack of use, SHORT RUNS, light loading and poor maintenance. The other thing that kills raw water cooled engines eventually is internal corrosion.

And there it is. Factor in the often poor maintenance and understanding of engines by owners and that's your problem. The ferries on Windermere run day in day, out all day.
I know the lad who maintains them. They very rarely break down.

Just read the motor-phobia threads and you'll see that apart from changing the oil, most owners lock it away and leave it.

If you use your motor for more than just getting in and out of the marina/mooring it should be better for it. A good hour's run now and then will help enormously, getting the whole motor nice and warm.
Developing some mechanical sympathy also helps. Arthur Ransome was a disaster when it came to engines. Even his new boats wouldn't play ball.
Developing mechanical skills is essential if you are a bit sparse in that area.

 

[C08]

On my old boat the 15 years old Yanmar 15 HP 2QN engine had only done about 1000 hours but was always hard to start despite new injectors, top end overhaul and constant care. Some of the difficulties with constant impellor changes required were with hindsight my lack of knowledge about water intake filter systems. However diesel bug problems, some overheating when pushed and air accumulating in the injection system (design fault due to the surplus fuel from the injectors being routed back to the fuel filter unit rather than the tank), the cooling system becoming unprimed when heeling heavily to starboard, the lift pump diaphram, the governor that flew apart, the injector pump. Over 10 years the engine never actually stopped at a time that gave me major problems but it was a constant stress and a worry that took a lot of pleasure away from the boating experience, particularly for my wife and daughter. Would it start-would it stop at a bad time?
So a boat with an old diesel engine mmm... could be ok or could be a nightmare!