In mast-v-slab reefing

Last boat had Hood Vertex in-mast furling system with vertical battens. Never jammed, good sail area because of the battens, set well, all controlled from the cockpit.

Current boat has stack pack system with single line reefing all lead back to the cockpit. Works well and easy

Like both but out of preference would go for in-mast with vertical battens
 
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Your comments about getting the tension right are quite germain in that the boats I referred to had slackened their main halyards which led to a kink in the sail on the way in, jamming and a subsequent loss of sail.

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But what I was meaning was that after I had lubed the blocks and the sail itself, all my sail now furls/unfurls without fuss whatever tension I have on halyard,topping lift, vang and outhaul. Basically if the sail is slippery you get a tighter roll (with correspondingly more room inside the mast) plus friction is reduced at the mast slot. Works for me.
 
Had a retro-fit one on a Moody 346 - it was a nightmare and eventually failed so I took the who,le lot off and put on a fully battened main .... best sail Ive ever had!

Never tried the 'proper' in mast, but on boats over 45ft I can see the benefit, especially if sailing with only 2 people ...
 
Don't think that's quite right. There are retrofit systems still available. We had an EasyReef system with MaxiRoach battened main on our Sadler 29 and it was excellent. Easy to use, good sail shape, aided by the vertical batten system.
Ours never jammed, but whenever we discussed the installation with other yachties, out came the horror stories. Invariably third or fourth hand and so not all that reliable.
True, there is the issue of additional weight upstairs which could obviously affect stability and righting moment, but in the years we had the Sadler ot never gave us an anxious moment. I feel that the reputation of in-mast reefing was tarnished by some of the early efforts that were poorly designed and engineered and consequently not robust. Properly installed, cared for and used sensibly ( especially keeping a bit of tension when rolling in) they are a boon to the short-handed sailor.
 
I've often thought about lubricating the sail. If the sail is new or reasonably slippery, half a turn on the furling line on a winch (with the outhaul locked off), will tighten the roll from the inside. This is particularly useful if you had to furl in a hurry and didn't tension whilst you furled. Those occasions when the sail bunches on the way out can be cured in that way.
 
See the post above yours!

I said they had almost disappeared. Whilst they may work for some, they are fundamentally unsound in concept. What they did was fill a gap in the then market. Since then alternative sail handling systems have improved enormously as you will see from many older boats fitting single line reefing and even going for fully battened mains. On the other hand the number of boats fitted with purpose built in mast has increased dramatically, so a buyer looking for this feature can get a properly designed one.

Reduction in stability is probably the biggest issue. There have been reports (but not confirmed) that charter boats have failed the stability test for coding after fitment of an add on system.

I am a big advocate of in mast as I have it on my Bavaria. But it was designed for it from the start. I also find that I get good sail shape with my new sail (but not the original) and am not sure that battens are needed, except to get more area, which again I don't feel a need for.

On existing, older (and therefore probably less valuable) boats, there are much better and more economical ways of improving sail handling. Whilst not as convenient (in my view) as in mast, they do preserve and usually improve sailing performance.
 
We have in-mast as our boat (IP370) came with it as standard. I had some mild concerns over it but when I found several IP's had made circumnavigations with it with no problems I never thought about it again. We experienced no problems either and found it very convenient - saves loads of time entering and leaving.

I'm not a reefing bigot, our old Leisure23 had "manual" slab reefing which I changed for single line (changed the boom in order to do it neatly!) which always worked well and meant we could stay in the cockpit when reefing. Left a lot of string in the cockpit though - the in-mast system is much tidier.

Both systems work, but on a small boat in-mast makes no sense whereas on a chunky 37 footer with a family crew and a purpose-built mast it's the DB's.
 
I get the in-mast thing, I really do. I'd never have one, as I go sailing, not pottering. Even when I'm crusing, anything that spoils the enjoyment of sailing (and anyone who tries to argue that in-mast is anything like as satisfying to trim or as powerful is actually wrong) is out.
But I realise that this is not the only way to enjoy the water, and for some people in-mast does tick the boxes.

However....

There is one situation that I don't get. And that (sorry Tranona) is the unhappy marriage of a fractional rig with in-mast.
Fractional rigs are designed to be bent using the backstay to flatten the main and (slightly less importantly) tension the forestay. As such they are designed with prebend and swept back spreaders.
Obviously an in-mast setup requires a ram-rod straight mast. So to get the stiffness and stability that the bend and mast compression normally gives the section has to be considerably stronger, hence heavier.

And yet most builders still give you a backstay tensioner! What in the world is that supposed to do? Can't bend the mast, as then the in-mast would jam, but it's pulling above the forestay so there will be a bending motion.

Plus the mainsail on a fractional rig is a significantly larger proportion of the sail area, so clipping it has a larger affect.
 
I'm just as committed to in-mast as flaming is to slab reefing.... but I agree with him 100% on the fractional rig.... its a rather daft combination that makes absolutely no sense at all.

You also can't argue that in mast is as powerful as a slab main... it isn't... but I do disagree with him on his other point though.... you can get just as much pleasure out of tuning an in-mast as a slab main.... its just different techniques
 
Could not agree more. The backstay on my boat is in exactly the same position as it was when it was delivered!

However, I have learned two things. Firstly you can adjust sail area and shape very effectively with the outhaul and the traveller - I have never (with my new sail) felt any need to flatten by bending the mast. Secondly the importance of a tight luff. I replaced the halyard recently and had to lead it back to the winch to get it tight.

There is plenty to play with - outhaul, sail area and genoa car position. Just that the objectives are different. I am aiming to keep the boat as flat as possible while making good progress. This also means that balance is good so she steers herself or the autopilot has little to do. Squeezing the last bit of speed is not on the agenda. Did that once and SWMBO got a bit of spray on her back. Worse still it also results in the beer cans falling over!
 
I "pottered" for 3000 miles liveaboard with in-mast furling - didn't lessen my enjoyment of the sailing one jot and we had some cracking trips in all sorts of conditions.

Masthead rig and no bending with the backstay tensioner - but she's a cutter so plenty of sail combinations to play with instead. Fractional rig and in-mast makes no sense to me.

And although I'm no world champion yes I did use to race dinghies and yes have been through plenty of fidgeting and tweaking in my time /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
In mast can be convenient, and worth considering if otherwise would not be able to keep sailing.

But two big issues about sail performance
(1) loss of sail area due to not having roach; and even more critical
(2) inability to apply cunningham tension to adjust sail set
Cunningham control is critical to upwind performance and getting power without excesive heel.

If you don't know or don't care about things like cunningham settings, and are happy to motor upwind in light conditions, then in mast is fine. If sailing performance is key, slab reefing remains the best.

PS I have a 36 footer and often sail it singlehanded. McLube on the sliders is critical to an easy hoist & drop - and we slam reefs in and out regularly as the wind changes, typically taking well under 5 mins in total whilst still sailing on (assuming upwind)
 
I think you have to change your mindset if you have in mast. You are seeing what you can do with the rig from the perspective of what you have. There is no need for a cunningham on a furling main because you can adjust sail size and shape with the outhaul.

In my experience many "tweeks are there to cover up the basic deficiencies of the set up and overcomplicate things.

Retire to bunker!
 
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McLube on the sliders is critical to an easy hoist & drop

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Could you provide a link or name a UK supplier please? I think I need to pay more attention to this subject on my yacht because the cumulative friction during a hoist is just silly.
 
You're not forgetting that "normal" mains have outhalls too are you?

It's a very important tool on all setups, as is the traveller. But if you really want to see something impressive have a look at a laminate sail with everything maxed. Backstay, halyard, Cunningham, outhall and kicker.
There's a reason modern inshore racing mains are often built without reefing points - in anything you can anchor a Comittee boat in they're simply not necessary!
Slightly off the point perhaps, but I struggle to imagine sailing a fractional rig without the ability to control it in this way.
 
If you are struggling, then follow my suggestion in response to another "performance lost" post and change your minsdet if you want to understand! I used to (in my younger and madder days) race an Osprey so I know all about what you describe of a boat maxed up and raring to go - even if I was pretty crap at actually achieving results. I also have the physical scars to show what happens when it goes wrong! Do not judge cruising boats by your performance standards. Yes, of course many people use racing type techniques on cruising boats but I would suggest that the vast majority don't.

I have tried to explain what my cruising objectives are and they do not include feeling really maxed up - in fact quite the opposite. I am not into inshore racing, have no use for, nor can afford laminate sails. My boat does not have a hull form that would benefit from all this stuff - so why is it relevant? And why is the tone always suggesting that somehow one is inferior if one does not appreciate such things?

My boat has probably done more sailing in the last 9 seasons than many boats achieve in a lifetime and given hundreds of paying customers a good experience as well as providing me with the opportunity to sail for longer than I have in 30 years with my boat in the UK. Different expectations, different outcomes - and I don't care that it has an odd fractional rig as it has no effect on my enjoyment of the boat!
 
Chill out a bit!! Flaming is well known for his racing exploits - and it takes time to drop down into cruising mode where you're not eeking out that last tenth of a knot or going for max VMG ... I still race dinghies and I know exactly what he means - I was out in my RS400 tonight in F5/6 - most cruising boats would have reefed at least once by now - but we (along with the rest of the racing fleet) were fully sailed and not spilling much wind - because we had the tools to flatten the sails when required.

I still get accused of sailing the big boat like a dinghy - and it is true to a point - I do want it sailing well and fast - that is part of what I find compelling in sailing ... don't take this comment the wrong way - but "any old fool can sail badly" ....
 
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Cunningham control is critical to upwind performance and getting power without excesive heel.

If you don't know or don't care about things like cunningham settings, and are happy to motor upwind in light conditions, then in mast is fine.

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I'm not at all sure that, for all rigs, a cunningham control is critical. The cunningham drags the fullness out of the sail, reducing camber and therefore heeling moment, and brings the point of max draft forward. On a furling main they are usually cut fairly flat anyway, and with the loose foot and outhaul control I can achieve much the same. Add in a powerful vang and I can depower the rig. What's harder to achieve is any kind of twist...
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If sailing performance is key, slab reefing remains the best.

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Probably, but you're only considering the main. Many conventional mains have tiny booms and large genoa's where the primary function of the main is to create a slot for the genoa venturi effect rather than a primary propulsion.

I'm not especially defending furling mains, I just think that they can be more effective than they are sometimes given credit for.
 
Not sure I understand the bit "if otherwise would not be able to keep sailing" - is the implication I'm past it and can't handle a real boat with slab reefing? Have you ever sailed a boat with in-mast furling?

I'm cruising a boat with my family and I want it safe, reliable and bulletproof, which is as near as possible what I have. I honestly couldn't give a toss about whether or not I have a cunningham to pull on to get a fraction of a knot extra weighed against the other advantages of the boat and rig I have.

We carried about a ton and a half of clothes, food, books, tools and other stuff for a 6 month liveaboard so honestly the sailing performance difference we could achieve with a bit of downhaul is irrelevant. Throwing the kids toys overboard would have had more effect.

When I was flying around for an hour or two racing dinghies that sort of thing was important to me and I can see it's important if you're flying around the cans in a racing yacht for a day or two but on an extended cruise with your family it becomes a non-issue, especially if the aim of such cruising is to unwind and relax.
 
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