In Mast Reefing

[Jabs]

We have had the same issues.

Close examination showed that:

1) Deck Organiser for outhaul was D shaped and split so not rotating and pinching the line.

2) Boom was rotating slightly leading to the outhaul running in the groove between the boom and the sheave.

3) Grit in the outhaul car wheels.

4) Friction in the mast lead for the outhaul.

Elimination of all the above helped tremendously.

Good luck!

It's a nightmare.

Tony.

 

[ostell]

Thanks to everyone for suggestions and comments. Will try it all out next time I'm out. Should keep SWMBO happy again.

Next thing is "how do I adjust the sail for best performance?"

 

[Tranona]

Beg to differ, have seen loads of sails that will only come out if you go to the mast and give them a tug, several of mine among them. In ALL cases ALL the above, friction, blocks, travellers and tracks have been fettled and lubed, rigging has been tweaked, trimmed and tensioned, booms have been measured with protractors and the like - and still the sail is too shy to come out. In the end the sail shape was the problem.

but as I have I said before what the hell do I know?

Its the same old issue, things work OK IF there is a lot of wind about when the sail is furled and unless everything is "right" when there is no wind when the sail is furled - there will be trouble - not today maybe but there WILL be trouble.

Since being away from the UK in 2010 EVERY troublesome rig I have "attended" has had in mast furling and in EVERY case sail condition was the main culprit.

Suggest you read the very first sentence of the original post. He states quite clearly that the sail comes out freely, BUT NOT when pulled out with the outhaul lines. You are of course correct that most problems arise from baggy sails or bad furls, but seems not in this case.
Always better to read what the problem is before suggesting solutions.

 

[aquaholic]

I took it for granted that you freed off the kicker and mainsheet, mine is difficult to furl or unfurl with both of these on.

 

[ostell]

I took it for granted that you freed off the kicker and mainsheet, mine is difficult to furl or unfurl with both of these on.

This is the first boat I've had with in mast furling, just didn't know what the procedures where, though I could sort of guess. Your comment gives confirmation. Thanks.

 

[aquaholic]

I forget how easy it is to miss the obvious, when we were looking to buy ours 2 years ago the sail wouldn't come out.....took a rigger to let of the backstays and out she popped!
Once you get used to using it you will be a convert....honest

 

[clyst]

If its an "Add on" reefing system take it off and revert to convention rig . I spent ages playing /adjusting with my Seldon add on it was never satisfactory and never gave confidence that it would furl away if in a stiff breeze . Very dangerous . it wasn't cheap to change back to the original system but worth every penny . Good luck anyway.

 

[ostell]

When I've eventually got the sail out, by what ever method, I've had no problems getting it back in.

 

[Tranona]

Quite clear it is not an add on, but a production Sparcraft.

If its an "Add on" reefing system take it off and revert to convention rig . I spent ages playing /adjusting with my Seldon add on it was never satisfactory and never gave confidence that it would furl away if in a stiff breeze . Very dangerous . it wasn't cheap to change back to the original system but worth every penny . Good luck anyway.

 

[Laurie]

I've never really got to understand the why on inmast reefing... (sorry if I'm repeating someone elses thoughts?)
Why put the weight high up, just at the time you want it low down?. Many systems ( not all) seem to have a poor sail shape? It seems inherently difficult to get access if it all goes wrong, which is the nature of sailing..

I've ended up with a fully battened, loose footed, lazy jacked, stack packed, deep fried system; but all said and done, is simple, accessible and quick. The sail shape is a constant source of joy (to me, but I'm easily pleased!)

 

[Tranona]

I've never really got to understand the why on inmast reefing... (sorry if I'm repeating someone elses thoughts?)
Why put the weight high up, just at the time you want it low down?. Many systems ( not all) seem to have a poor sail shape? It seems inherently difficult to get access if it all goes wrong, which is the nature of sailing..

I've ended up with a fully battened, loose footed, lazy jacked, stack packed, deep fried system; but all said and done, is simple, accessible and quick. The sail shape is a constant source of joy (to me, but I'm easily pleased!)

Like many others I am delighted with my in mast. There are just different benefits such as ease of handling, ease of adjusting sail areas (without being restricted to effectively 2 predetermined areas) and simplicity which makes getting the most out of a boat sailed shorthanded easier. The supposed problems of weight and complexity are way overstated with a purpose built design.

Is it a surprise that the majority of new cruising boats use them?

 

[ostell]

Thanks to all. Managed to get out and test the various suggestions. First attempt was to use the topping lift to raise the boom after loosening kicker and sheets. Sail came straight out without excessive effort, and also went back in again without effort. Had to run back into harbour as a mist was rolling in off the Solent.

2nd attempt wasn't quite so successful. Problems getting the sail out of the slot but pushed the boom up a bit higher and problem resolved so looks like I'm in the correct area. Went back in without any problem. Shame the wind died so didn't get the chance to see how well it performed. Next time I'll mark the topping lift so I know the correct position.

 

[Vara]

This has helped others with this problem;

Maxi roach instructions.


From the fitting instructions for a fully batterned Maxi Roach mainsail


Setting up the system
First make sure the kicker is off i.e plenty of slack.Make sure the mainsheet has sufficient slack to enable the boom to rise at least 14 inches.Pull thesail fully out until the foot and the leach are of a similar tension i.e. basically flat.Go to the kicker and tension it to that angle.Do not over tension.This should be the last time you ever need to adjust the kicker.
Now roll the sail in and set the boom horizontally to the mast,when you bring the sail out next time it will automatically slack off the topping lift.


When bringing the sail out it is important that the sail is tightened around the spar.This is done by pulling the reefing line and snugging the sail up around the spar before attempting to haul the sail out.BUT it is not necessary to roll the sail in tightly as you go when furling it away. You can let the clew go but keep control so that it does not flog into the center of the sail, and roll the sail in as loosely as you want.The main thing is, before you bring the sail out again, take hold of the reefing line and pull it hard. Ifyou have not got the strength to pull it hard, then put it on the winch and turn the winch no more than one and a half times. Do not over winch.
The sail should never be over tensioned, you should only need to tension the sail until the wrinkles in the luff disappear.

 

[ostell]

I knew we had it nearly there!

My wife paid for the installation of a Selden gas kicker. Makes life a lot easier.

For getting the sail out I set the boom to about the same angle as the foot of the sail. Sail comes out without any problem.

Putting it back in in the mast I pull the boom down to horizontal, keeping slight tension on the clew. Sail goes straight in, with equal rolling tension above and below the clew.

Keeping the boom up at an angle when pulling the sail in makes an uneven roll around the spar, so much so that it made it difficult. Below the clew tightly wrapped, above the clew not tight and tending to jam.

At least SWMBO is now happy to get the main out.

Now just have to play around trying to get the correct shape.

 

[vyv_cox]

Is it a surprise that the majority of new cruising boats use them?

Although this thread is a year old it gives me the opportunity to report our recent observations. Over the past few years the majority of charter boats in the Aegean were fitted with in-mast reefing. Several yards we know have reported being asked to free jammed sails three or four times per week and we have watched a few of them at Leros, it must be said not all with inexperienced charterers. This year it is noticeable that far more charter yachts have conventional slab reefing with stack packs. Seems they are finding that a more foolproof method leads to fewer problems.

 

[Robin]

Not the same as the Selden method. The outhaul goes from the front of the car to a sheave at the clew and then through a block on the top of the car back to the sheave at the end of the boom. So the outhaul pull is always horizontal.

Ours is not Seldon and I'm brand new to in -mast. THE layout is as in the Op's diagram, with no block on th boom car. I got paranoid after reading this thread and looked at older pics of our boat to see if we once had a block on the boom car bit (we didn't it seems ) but I also looked on u tube videos of an identical boat to ours which did have the extra block fitted. I'm wondering now if I should add a block to mine to make it easier to unfurl, as it currently needs some winch assistance. I didn't get to play with ours before a so called expert rigger removed the mast for a refit ashore and new radar scanner, VHF antenna, wind instruments etc fitting etc. When this 'expert' refitted the mast on re-launch he messed up several things enough for me to seriously question his competence ( and parentage) and alhough I have corrected most things like re-reeving the running riigging through the correct mast foot blocks and organisers, I still have nagging doubts what other errors of his that I will find. The new radar scanner for instance was mounted on the mast platform 180 degs out so anything is possible!

 

[ostell]

The reference to Selden was this bit of kit, and nothing to do with the inmast reefing.

I have since changed my set up from the original drawing that was left with the boat, changed it to match other peoples set ups. I now have a block on the car as well as on the clew. The outhaul goes from the back of the boom parallel to the boom to a block on the car. Then up to a block on the clew and returning to the car where it is tied off.

In this arrangement if you keep the boom horizontal and watch the outhaul halyard at the clew you will see that the rope goes from sort of horizontal to vertical as the clew reaches the car. At this point the main direction of pull is vertical, which is not going to help pule the sail out in a horizontal direction. If you use the topping lift to raise the boom so that the car is horizontally behind the clew then the pull is all horizontal and the sail comes out without the need for a winch.

I found that I need to set the boom horizontal for pulling the main back into the mast so that it is neatly wrapped around the spar.

I suppose that if you really slackened off the kicker (vang?) and main sheet then the boom should come up to meet the clew of the sail and keep the pull horizontal. I just find it easier to use the rod kicker to raise the boom.

 

[Robin]

update to my initial reply

Ours is not Seldon and I'm brand new to in -mast. THE layout is as in the Op's diagram, with no block on th boom car. I got paranoid after reading this thread and looked at older pics of our boat to see if we once had a block on the boom car bit (we didn't it seems ) but I also looked on u tube videos of an identical boat to ours which did have the extra block fitted. I'm wondering now if I should add a block to mine to make it easier to unfurl, as it currently needs some winch assistance. I didn't get to play with ours before a so called expert rigger removed the mast for a refit ashore and new radar scanner, VHF antenna, wind instruments etc fitting etc. When this 'expert' refitted the mast on re-launch he messed up several things enough for me to seriously question his competence ( and parentage) and alhough I have corrected most things like re-reeving the running riigging through the correct mast foot blocks and organisers, I still have nagging doubts what other errors of his that I will find. The new radar scanner for instance was mounted on the mast platform 180 degs out so anything is possible!

My thanks to the OP who made me question our set up as ours is the first boat I''ve ever owned with in-mast furling always much preferring slab reefing on a fully battened main with lazyjacks, but heck I had a stroke 2 years ago and the in mast was a condition Applied by SWMBO of downsizing and returning to sail from our then 47 foot 25 ton live aboard trawler. We have modified our in mast system's boom slide to add a pulley block as suggested in this thread, sprayed dry lube 'sailkote' over the boom groove since our outhaul car doesn't even run on a track but in the groove. we now have a super slick unfurl and furl which needs no winching unless SWMBO does it and hasn't had her spinach lunch yet. It is a virtually new sail, excellently made in Hydranet by Crusader 12 months ago for us too which probably helps and we do have a rigid kicker/vang supporting the boom.

I would still prefer a slab reefed fully battened main with two line reefing fro the cockpit, but then if needs must.... here on the ICW AKA The ditch at least we can deploy/undeploy the main as fast as the headsail when following the channel marks beween the shallows.

 

[Tim Good]

Just curious but how do people on this thread tend to unfurl their in-mast? We can't get ours out by cranking on the outhaul. There seems like too much tension so we have to unwind the furling gear and simply take the slack up with the out haul as it is unfurled.

I mean most manufactures seem to state:

1. Free both sides of the endless loop from the winch and Clam-Cleat. It will then slide on the Reefing Winch.
2. Pull out the sail with the outhaul line

 

[neil1967]

We had similar problems, and found it was largely caused by excessive friction. We reduced the diameter of the outhaul from 14 to 12mm, used a bigger diameter block at the base of the mast for the outhaul, and freed off the deck organiser, all of which helped. In addition, we had the inmost furling serviced - almost certainly the first time it had been done in many years, and it was very gunged up with thick grease. The outhaul is still a bit stiff, but is certainly operable by hand.

Neil