In Mast Reefing - yuk!

Courageous

Courageous

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www.courageous.it
Evening chaps.
When I bought my Benny the broker warned me of the dangers of the main snagging in the mast and advised me to always keep tension on the outhaul as you reef it in....... It's got to the stage where it snags 100% of the time now and the sail appears to have permanent creasing in the bottom two panels! I have tried lifting the boom with the topping lift during reefing and lowering when reefing to try to find the "happy" angle to pull all creasing out but to no avail! Have any of you chaps discovered the "secret" of the black magic mainsail or am I *ucked??
Had a neighbour take a peep at it today as he was describing his envy of my reefing system against his stack pack and when I told him of my woes he told me he had friends with ten systems like mine and none gave snags! Why's it pickin on me then? Is it possible the sail has deformed now?
Rig is selden and sail elvstrom.
Appreciate yr considered suggestions. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I have an oceanis 351 with in mast reefing. At first it was a real pain in the neck but now it is really no problem.
Initially it was jamming because the shackles holding the sail at the top an bottom were too big(jamming in the mast.)
Secondly due to the stretch in the mainsail I could not get enough tension in the luff which resulted in creasing.(smaller shakles also helped this).
Once that was sorted the sail ran much smoother.

My tips for smooth operation are.

1/ Ensure topping lift and kicking strap are released before rolling/unrolling the sail.

2/Try to keep some wind in the sail to keep tension on it.

3/Try the boom over to port and stbd as the system usually operates much better on one side than the other.

4/Finally if all else fails have somebody at the mast to help the sail in and out. It really does help.

Hope this is of use
 
Thanx Bob - I guess the decision whether the boom goes port or starbord depends upon the direction of the lay? Aim to have the sail not doubling back upon itself..... Mine is also a 351 and the broker advised me to always head into wind when furling and unfurling and maintain tension using the clew outhaul but this seems to be of no advantage to me here..... This evening I detatched the clew from the boom and hauled her in and out as a free spirit by hand and she seemed to stow perfectly! Am kinda hoping that as she now sits inside the mast crease free the permacreased areas MAY now iron themselves out and I may get a fresh start. I live in hope hehe!

Thankyou for taking the time and trouble to give this advice.
 
If you have in-mast furling surely having some one at the mast to make sure it works properly somewhat negates the supposed advantages?
I've never liked the system,anything that depends on following a fixed sequence to avoid an irreversible and potentially catastrophic situation has no place on a sailing boat.
In a non scientific survey of new boats in NW France this year the majority of the ones I saw had a stac-pac type of system fitted as standard(boats 35-55ft).2/3 years ago I would have expected to see them all fitted with in-mast furling.
Mind you 25 years ago I felt the same about headsail roller reefing and I have warmed to that concept(still with reservations though)!Give In-mast a few more years and it might be a viable concept.
 
EAsyReef Maxi Roach is the only answer, it has vertical battens. We had such a set up on our old Sadler and it never jammed and gave a good sail shape even when deep reefed. We had an unbattened main on a charter boat in Greece that had obviously suffered from some hamfisted roll-ins and the sail was fairly well mis-shapen and needed careful tending of the outhaul to avoid a jam. But whatever system you have, boom angle is critical. Once you have established the correct angle, you should leave it there. Mucking about with the topping lift while reefing/letting out is likely to make the problem worse
 
on a flotilla in the ionian with 331s they were quite categoric about being on one tack to reef and not to go head to wind, to do with which way the lay goes, sonsy lass is a bene 351 but with slab reefing
stu
 
Does this mean you can't play with the kicking strap while sailing to get the appropriate amount of tension on the leech for the wind strength etc? With my slab reefing system I'm adjusting the kicking strap as much as the main sheet, and personally would hate to feel restricted in this.

Does one just give up on trying to get an appropriate sail shape for the conditions with in-mast?
 
Of course you can play with the kicking strap whilst sailing. I have to laugh when I hear purists going on about sail-shape being a big deal with in-mast. Yes, it's one of the minus points to this type of system but it's not so bad that it massively affects the performance of the boat. A bigger issue is the fact that the boat becomes top-heavy due to the weight of the mast, thus giving supposed balance problems, but again it's not something I've had a real problem with. Yet.
 
It was the recommendation about "Once you have established the correct angle, you should leave it there. Mucking about with the topping lift while reefing/letting out is likely to make the problem worse" to which I was referring. I had rather assumed this meant one wasn't supposed to muck about with the boom angle, but then I don't use a topping lift, instead a solid kicking strap/strut arrangement that supports the boom at a particular angle, so I was thinking in those terms. I forgot that many others use topping lifts!

If in your system it's OK to have a slack topping lift and plenty of boom droop when reefing/letting out, then I guess you're OK, you may get away without having to adjust it?
 
Yep, this does seem to be the problem for most, if not all, in-mast systems. Personally I've only sailed (for any distance) with the Maxi-Roach version, and wouldn't have one on my boat if it was fitted free and came with an annual cash contribution!!

Simply awful shape to the sail (this was one season old) and virtually no way to adjust the sail shape as one would in the normal way.

I quite understand people wanting these things for their convenience in stowing/reefing, but in my experience, there is no way they can be remotely compared to a fully sdjustable slab-reefed sail. All IMHO of course!
 
At the boat show yesterday, looking at the Island Packet range of boats, very impressed with the build quality. Whilst looking at the 445 I got into coversation with one of the reps, he was an American, they are built in Florida. I raised the point about the inmast furling, and not wanting to be in a position of having the main jam high up in heavy weather and unable to reef or furl. His reply was that their system had been tested by time by circumnavigations and many 100k's of miles by very satisfied owners, many sigle handed as all control led back to cockpit. Now you may think 'he would say that wouldn't he' and you would be probably right, but also spoke to the UK reps who confirmed their similar experience and offered me a no obligation days sail, even though I made it quote clear it was out of my league (£330k) to see for myself.
The American guy also made the point you did re roller headsails and the original oposition to them, now universaly accepted, well almost. Thought I would add this the onging discussion for and against.
Mike
 
I have the maxiroach sail. I love the vertical battens, but maxiroach cut their leech much higher than any other maker, and I reckon this causes quite a few of the reported problems. It also cuts into sail area as well. wish I had bought mine elsewhere.
 
I was very intersted to read your comment about detaching the clew from the boom. I have been having similar problems to you and have been thinking of a better route for the outhaul. Please can you tell me how you attached the clew to the outhaul ? Did you go through any blocks to increase your purchase ? Also how is the foot of the sail when in a reefed position, Is it high ? Any help would be most appreciated...
 
I have a strong sense of deja-vu! About two weeks ago there was a thread here titled 'mainsail furling systems'.

If your mainsail furling system requires any esoteric behaviour to make it work (being on one tack or another, not being head to wind, having a topping lift in a certain position, or whatever), then there is something wrong with the setup.

Your example of oversized shackles is a good one. Halyard attachments being incorrectly aligned (so they twist and take up more space) is another.

Just as important are the rigging adjustments. I quote from the previous thread:

---------------------------
Furling mains are more critical of how your rig is set up than slabs are. Paticular points to watch out for are:

1. Your rigging must be set up to keep the mast dead straight. If it's not, both furling and unfurling will suffer friction as the furl rubs the bend.

2. Your sail must be flat - designed for furling. If it has become baggy, it'll roll up OK, but will form wrinkles. When unrolling, these wrinkles will cause stiffness and even jams as they rub against the slot. Careful rolling techniques to prevent wrinkling can help - such as always having the sail slightly filled while rolling. But the problem is a baggy sail!

3. Excessive foil tension (and on some rigs, halyard tension) puts heavy loads on the bearings, which will then be stiff both to roll and unroll.

A well set up system will roll and unroll easily. No lubricants are necessary. If you're resorting to lubricants, look first at the factors above and check the rig is right. If your sail is flat, and your mast is straight, loosen off that main halyard a bit and see if that makes any difference.

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Seldon confirmed that one of the main reasons for jamming is that people tend to rake the angle of their masts, hauling down on the backstays to increase the tension and flatten the sail, great racing technique but a definate no no for in mast reefing, putting prebend or rake in the mast makes the inside rub on the inside wall of the mast.
 
The "American rep" was most likely Bill Bolin, their VP of Marketing, who is over at every boat show as far as I can tell /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We have an IP and asked the same questions about in-mast furling before we bought. They have been around the world with no apparent problems and no-one I've talked to who owns one (and I've talked to a lot of them) has had any issues. Bill can tell you about (successfully) reefing on a run in near-hurricane conditions on a trip he did once but fortunately we've never had to do that.

We've done 3000 miles in ours so far with no mishap and really enjoyed the convenience of it and the safety of not having to go up to the mast when it was lumpy. Keeping some tension on the outhaul is important to ensure it reefs smoothly.
 
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