Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
yep!... but (and pardon the expression!!!) stiff enough is good enough!
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Let me interject here, I am considering using it on a heavy displacement long keel cruiser 13 tonner.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
ah well..... you'll need a very tall mast then... about 30m should do /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
sailorman
Well-Known Member
13 tonner -- displacement or TM
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Ooooooops! Displacement, got it wrong, it's probably about 15 tons displacement in cruising trim.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
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ah well..... you'll need a very tall mast then... about 30m should do /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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I will definately be celebrating when you go now! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
ah well..... you'll need a very tall mast then... about 30m should do /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
I will definately be celebrating when you go now! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Pete7
Well-Known Member
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Problem with it is that it's not only the weight of the sail, but the section is bigger and has to be stiffer.
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Agreed, in our case we know the first owner requested inmast reefing. Moody went back to Bill Dixon and asked if he could design a system with Selden for the Moody 31 which he did. We moor next to another Moody 31 with slab reefing so have the opportunity to compare side by side. There is very little difference other than we have twin spreaders.
So yes there is a little extra weight but that would have been taken into account during the design of the rig, but what wouldn't have been taken into account is next doors radar half way up the mast.
Pete
Problem with it is that it's not only the weight of the sail, but the section is bigger and has to be stiffer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, in our case we know the first owner requested inmast reefing. Moody went back to Bill Dixon and asked if he could design a system with Selden for the Moody 31 which he did. We moor next to another Moody 31 with slab reefing so have the opportunity to compare side by side. There is very little difference other than we have twin spreaders.
So yes there is a little extra weight but that would have been taken into account during the design of the rig, but what wouldn't have been taken into account is next doors radar half way up the mast.
Pete
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Many thanks to all that have posted on this one, I am thinking of buying a Saltram Saga 40, Sorry about being a bit vague on the displacement but some give it as 13 tons, some as 14.5 tons. I think though that fully bunkered she would be approaching 15 tons.
As I have said, I will be single handed for most of the time, so am looking at ways to make life a bit easier, including the addition of a reefing self tacking staysail, and roller furling Genoa.
Once again, many thanks. given me much food for thought.
As I have said, I will be single handed for most of the time, so am looking at ways to make life a bit easier, including the addition of a reefing self tacking staysail, and roller furling Genoa.
Once again, many thanks. given me much food for thought.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
<<< if the boat is designed with in-mast in mind then it will be factored into the stability calcs when ballast weights are confirmed. As opposed IMHO for when a system is retrofitted to a boat designed with a slab system in mind. >>>
I agree with your latter point here. A friend was contemplating buying a boat with an add-on mast reefing system for his sailing school. In order to satisfy all the licensing requirements he had to put the boat through an inclination test, which it failed. He verified that the standard boat without in-mast reefing normally passed.
I agree with your latter point here. A friend was contemplating buying a boat with an add-on mast reefing system for his sailing school. In order to satisfy all the licensing requirements he had to put the boat through an inclination test, which it failed. He verified that the standard boat without in-mast reefing normally passed.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
In all these posts there is no mention of an alternative - in-boom roller furling.
I too sail mainly single-handed and have been down this path. The point became clear from research (and questions on these fora) that an in-mast retro-fit would be unsuitable and the cost of a new mast, tailored for in-mast furling, prohibitively expensive.
I was recommended an in-boom system by a rigger whose opinion and experience in fitting them I respected. I have since ordered an Profurl system that is currently being fitted.
HTH.
I too sail mainly single-handed and have been down this path. The point became clear from research (and questions on these fora) that an in-mast retro-fit would be unsuitable and the cost of a new mast, tailored for in-mast furling, prohibitively expensive.
I was recommended an in-boom system by a rigger whose opinion and experience in fitting them I respected. I have since ordered an Profurl system that is currently being fitted.
HTH.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Agree completely that for a retrofit, and in boom is probably a better option rather than the cost of replacing the entire rig.
samwise
Well-Known Member
Don't listen to the doomsayers. We had an EasyReef Maxiroach arrangement on our old Sadler 29 and it was brilliant, a boon for any shorthander or ( as you said) the wobbly pinned among us who would gladly put off a march to the mast in a seaway.
Ours never jammed and the sailing performance was fine as far as we were concerned. It was a retrofit on our boat and in that case, the only real concern might be the extra weight upstairs, but we never had a problem.
The biggest fear with these things is getting a jam, to the extent that you cannot get the sail down without having to slice it off.
Usually this happens when trying to reef in a rush with too much wind in the sail. Unbattened sails are more prone to stick, especially if they are past their best and a bit stretched and soggy ( we had this experience with a well-used charter boat in Croatia). In those circumstances you can feel if the sail is not going into the slot properly and if you stop, pull out and take it a bit gently it usually behaves. The trouble starts when you put a gorilla on the reefing line who just carries on tugging regardless.
However, the best answer is to have a battened sail, as I said. The EasyReef MaxiRoach has vertical battens which provides a good shape to guide into the slot and also a good shape for sailing on most of the infinite reef variations.
MaxiRoach were doing a vertically battened foresail. I don't know if they still offer it.
Ours never jammed and the sailing performance was fine as far as we were concerned. It was a retrofit on our boat and in that case, the only real concern might be the extra weight upstairs, but we never had a problem.
The biggest fear with these things is getting a jam, to the extent that you cannot get the sail down without having to slice it off.
Usually this happens when trying to reef in a rush with too much wind in the sail. Unbattened sails are more prone to stick, especially if they are past their best and a bit stretched and soggy ( we had this experience with a well-used charter boat in Croatia). In those circumstances you can feel if the sail is not going into the slot properly and if you stop, pull out and take it a bit gently it usually behaves. The trouble starts when you put a gorilla on the reefing line who just carries on tugging regardless.
However, the best answer is to have a battened sail, as I said. The EasyReef MaxiRoach has vertical battens which provides a good shape to guide into the slot and also a good shape for sailing on most of the infinite reef variations.
MaxiRoach were doing a vertically battened foresail. I don't know if they still offer it.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think you will be into lots of beer tokens for a properly specced replacement mast and sail - not an add on, and you may do better spending less money on a really good fully battened system or in boom furling that will retain the existing mast.
IMHO a furling main comes into its own on boats like mine which are never going to great sailers, but are fairly light and need sail reduction fairly early and easily. Your proposed boat is, however, very different, heavy displscement blue water etc which will stand up to sail much better. Not sure the easy handling benefits of furling over a well set up fully battened system would be quite so great. Potential downside of fully battened is lots of string and clutches, but physical effort is probably not a lot different.
IMHO a furling main comes into its own on boats like mine which are never going to great sailers, but are fairly light and need sail reduction fairly early and easily. Your proposed boat is, however, very different, heavy displscement blue water etc which will stand up to sail much better. Not sure the easy handling benefits of furling over a well set up fully battened system would be quite so great. Potential downside of fully battened is lots of string and clutches, but physical effort is probably not a lot different.
Boat44
Well-Known Member
My two cents worth!!
We bought our boat with a Hood inmast furling system. We were a bit pesamistic about it, but the brand new teak decks swayed the argument.
We sail short handed. And over the past 4 years it has been great. It can get jammed, but our experience to date is this only happens when you are in a rush and forget to take the backstay tension off. We then get creases which cause the jam.
If I was doing it from scratch? I would think about in boom with a fully batten, but only with powered winches. The mast is too tall to be messing about short handed with halyards that long, for us anyway. But the inboom will have the advantage of lower down weight, “proper” mainsail if you want it, etc.
I would echo other peoples’ comments, if you do do it, go for a proper system, not a bolt on after thought.
Happy sailing.
We bought our boat with a Hood inmast furling system. We were a bit pesamistic about it, but the brand new teak decks swayed the argument.
We sail short handed. And over the past 4 years it has been great. It can get jammed, but our experience to date is this only happens when you are in a rush and forget to take the backstay tension off. We then get creases which cause the jam.
If I was doing it from scratch? I would think about in boom with a fully batten, but only with powered winches. The mast is too tall to be messing about short handed with halyards that long, for us anyway. But the inboom will have the advantage of lower down weight, “proper” mainsail if you want it, etc.
I would echo other peoples’ comments, if you do do it, go for a proper system, not a bolt on after thought.
Happy sailing.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
I must admit, I hadn't really thought of in boom, Hmmmmmm, more food for thought.....now please be quiet, my head is starting to hurt! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
My current boat has a Seldon in mast furling. When I bought it, it was definitely not what my ideal was! BUT
It really is easy to use. you do loose performance, it is so easy to reef, and furl, especially single handed.
I would not go for the fancy sails - vertical battens etc, just the plain vanilla un-battened main. My sails were lightly used, but you do need to check that they have not stretched too much. You will notice this to start with by creasing of the sails as you furl. So if it gets too much, a visit to the sail maker will re-cut the luff to remove some of the stretch - I have just had it done, so will see in a couple of weeks whether it has made any difference. The sail will probably not last as long as a conventional main, due to it being made of lighter materials - thus more stretch.
It is as good as a slab system - definitley NO>>>>
Am I happy with it - absolutely!
It really is easy to use. you do loose performance, it is so easy to reef, and furl, especially single handed.
I would not go for the fancy sails - vertical battens etc, just the plain vanilla un-battened main. My sails were lightly used, but you do need to check that they have not stretched too much. You will notice this to start with by creasing of the sails as you furl. So if it gets too much, a visit to the sail maker will re-cut the luff to remove some of the stretch - I have just had it done, so will see in a couple of weeks whether it has made any difference. The sail will probably not last as long as a conventional main, due to it being made of lighter materials - thus more stretch.
It is as good as a slab system - definitley NO>>>>
Am I happy with it - absolutely!
blueb
New Member
I have a Bavaria 34 with Selden In mast reefing. It is fine and very easy to use. We often use the main for short trips when others are motoring or under genoa only because of the work involved in raising the main for short trips. My only tip on furling and unfurling is keep it under tension. My only jam was caused by crew pulling in the unwind direction when the sail was fully furled. This increased its bulk inside the mast and caused it to jam when pulled by the outhaul. By winding the sail in it was tightened on the spindle in the mast and the jam unclogged. In very strong wind conditions with say 30% reefed what you don't want to happen is for the sail to completely unfurl when you try to reef further. To achieve this either keep the tension fully on the furling line or if in doubt then put the rathet on at the mast. This allows furling but not unfurling.
For performance I am disadvantaged going to windward compared to a boat with a fully battened main even having done everything possible to flatten the sail but as soon as one is off the wind by playing the outhaul excellent drive is achieved. Close reaching in say 12 to 15 kts I would ease the outhaul by 6 inches and by 12 to 18 when broad reaching and running. My background is top level dinghy racing and I tend to sail the 34 the same way even though I'm retired now. Good luck with your Selden In-mast reefing.
For performance I am disadvantaged going to windward compared to a boat with a fully battened main even having done everything possible to flatten the sail but as soon as one is off the wind by playing the outhaul excellent drive is achieved. Close reaching in say 12 to 15 kts I would ease the outhaul by 6 inches and by 12 to 18 when broad reaching and running. My background is top level dinghy racing and I tend to sail the 34 the same way even though I'm retired now. Good luck with your Selden In-mast reefing.
cmedsailor
Well-Known Member
I have a sparcraft in mast furling mast on my Beneteau. I also find it an excellent system. Easy to furl or unfurl especially single handed. Performance wise, definately not as good as a fully battened sail provided of course you know how to trim it (I go club racing very often with excellent results). Regarding jamming, you need to find a method to furl it and always prefer to do it yourself. Ah, it doesn't jam when you furl it but when you unfurl it (for those talking about safety of the system). And a last thing about sparcraft it offers both worlds if required (furling or classic if you want).
Skents
Well-Known Member
I did actually have a boat with in-mast reefing for a couple of years (for trip to Med and Med cruising) and it was absolutely fine. However.....
I have spoken to a couple of designers on the subject (including a guy from Van de Stadt and Alan Pape) who both recommended extra ballast on a new build if the owner was contemplating fitting in-mast reefing.
Also....if it is so efficient why don't the Vendee fleet adopt in mast reefing - they don't mind roller reefing headails?
On my current boat (self built) - I've stuck with a full battened main with slab reefing and lines at the mast not lead aft. But we could open up a whole new can of worms if we get onto the pros and cons of lines lead aft!
I have spoken to a couple of designers on the subject (including a guy from Van de Stadt and Alan Pape) who both recommended extra ballast on a new build if the owner was contemplating fitting in-mast reefing.
Also....if it is so efficient why don't the Vendee fleet adopt in mast reefing - they don't mind roller reefing headails?
On my current boat (self built) - I've stuck with a full battened main with slab reefing and lines at the mast not lead aft. But we could open up a whole new can of worms if we get onto the pros and cons of lines lead aft!
PeterGibbs
Well-Known Member
12 years ago when I took a Bav 38 out for a demo sail, it had in mast furling. Oh no, said I, I could not sustain the loss of performance from a 10% reduced sail area! So I bought a conventional rig.
What mugs we can be at the hands of the vocal marginalistas, who fuss over every little drag and tattle. I soon learned unreservedly to endorse in-mast reefing for all the many reasons advanced by those with real experience.
Let the marginalistas drift off to their hair brained lofts, and let the rest of us enjoy the advances that really can help overall performance and enjoyment!
PWG
What mugs we can be at the hands of the vocal marginalistas, who fuss over every little drag and tattle. I soon learned unreservedly to endorse in-mast reefing for all the many reasons advanced by those with real experience.
Let the marginalistas drift off to their hair brained lofts, and let the rest of us enjoy the advances that really can help overall performance and enjoyment!
PWG