In Mast Furling

[iangrant]

Sorry - old and boring topic - but mine jammed half way out at the weekend (it could be rolled up again though). Two riggers freed it up this morning (not cheap) and reported that the sail is too baggy at the foot. Hmmm!
I think there is a knack to the furling to stop the jam/stick unfurling - any advice (before I do a mad axeman on the sail)?
Oh, and it had to happen with SWMBO on board!

Ian

 

[pvb]

Some thoughts...

The foot of the sail should be at an angle of less than 90 degrees to the luff so that, as it furls, the thicker foot seam "spirals" upwards. If this isn't the case, jams are inevitable. I've found that correct boom height is important, as this helps to control the angle of the outhaul. It also helps to maintain some tension on the outhaul whilst furling, to help the sail to be wound up compactly in the mast.

 

[robp]

Re: Some thoughts...

Had the same problem last year. Standing on the coach roof and pulling the sail out at a point above the foot worked pro temp, until the sail was sorted. As PVB says, the boom angle makes a difference and you may find that letting the boom up as high as possible might help on unfurling. (Although this takes the tension off the leach more). As regards getting it furled in tighter, you can furl in as normal, then after having jammed the outhaul, put 1/4 turn (really carefully) on the furling drum with the winch. This will slightly reduce the bulk on the foil. Halyard tension is important to get right too. Too tight and the foil will bend and then it all binds. Too loose and it rolls up baggy of course.

 

[JeremyF]

What\'s the point

of in-mast furling on a typical sub-40ft yacht?

I passed by a boat yesterday with similar difficulties, and got pondering why?

With single line reefing and a rod kicker, why do people still choose in-mast reefing?

Even when it works, you get a crap sail shape, unless you go for mega-expensive vertical battens.

If the last few feet of hoisting is getting tough, upgrade the winch.

Or have I missed something?

<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[Achilles]

I used to have this problem but now I ensure the main halyard is always tight when furling the sail. Also when furling keep a small amount of tension on the control line so the sail furls tightly. I don't have any problems with the main jamming anymore, neither do I have to use a winch in either direction.

Hope this helps.

 

[Achilles]

I used to have this problem but now I ensure the main halyard is always tight when furling the sail. Also when furling keep a small amount of tension on the control line so the sail furls tightly. I don't have any problems with the main jamming anymore, neither do I have to use a winch in either direction.

Hope this helps.

 

[pvb]

Well, you might have missed the point...

There are various points, I suppose. Firstly, most people buy second-hand boats, and if the boat you want happens to have in-mast furling rather than single-line reefing, most people would probably buy it, on the basis that both systems work reasonably well. Secondly, with some makes, in-mast furling is by far the most popular new-build option, and so most of the second-hand examples will have it.

When it's properly set up, in-mast furling works fine. I don't agree with you that "you get a crap sail shape", although there is obviously some loss of sail area. I often sail single-handed, and in-mast furling makes it so much easier. If I wanted to race, I'd never choose it, but for cruising gently around, it's hard to beat.

 

[JeremyF]

Re: Well, you might have missed the point...

Good point about what a second-hand boat comes with. I nearly bought a Westerly with a maxi-roach sail.

However, as a matter of choice on a new yacht, with single line reefing, lazyjacks and rod-kickers, there's little to choose on convenience, and lots for sail performance.

<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[qsiv]

Re: What\'s the point

In most ways I'd have to agree...

I have a slightly larger boat (well, 51) with a 23m mast, and striaghtforward fully battened main with single line reefing.

I sail the boat singlehanded (to all intents and purposes as wife and boys are not keen crew, to put it mildly!), and I couldnt bear to think of the consequences of a tangle with in mast. A sister ship has that nize in boom furling from New Zealand, but even so I know my main generates a huge amount more power.

The only time when I sometimes wish for some sort of in boom furling is when it's blowing hard when I'm trying to stow the sail inside a rather snug bag. Just occasionally I reach for a couple of sail ties and leave it till the morning.

All other times when I look up at the huge roach supported by the full battens I just love the 'real' mainsail.

 

[JeremyF]

Re: What\'s the point

Thats a lot of main to raise by hand. On a day out on a Challenge yacht it took two sweating the halyard at the mast, and three back at the winch.



<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[qsiv]

Re: What\'s the point

Ahh - three things make it easier.

Firstly - the sail is a UK Mylar/Kevlar tapedrive - sets beautifully, the draft desnt move aft and generate weather helm as it blows harder, and it weighs I would guess about a third of a challenge dacron main.

Second - Frederiksen roller bearing cars take out most of the friction - I can hoist the main at the mast up to the second spreader hand over hand before there is significant weight.

Third - (always best to keep the aces up your sleeve) - A pair of Andersen 66 electric winches provide the pulling power - in reality I unzip the bag, ask the autopilot to keep the boat head to wind, and making sure the main stays within the lazyjacks, press the button. 40 seconds later the main is hoisted, and at that stage I need to put the coffe mug down to coil the main halyard!

Joking aside - even without the big powered winches it wouldnt be a difficult task.

 

[Guest]

Re: Well, you might have missed the point...

Thank the Lord for diversity. If some people want in-mast furling leave them be. After all, just because you sail a white boat doesn't mean that everybody should.

If you sail single handed in aboat on which you can reach the sheets from the helm AND reach the genoa furler and the main furler you would be surprised at how much more sailing gets done rather than motoring with just the genny up.

But then if you were sailing a boat where you can reach anything from behind the fashionably large wheels of today then you would probably be on an older boat anyway.

 

[johndf]

Re: Another thought

You haven't adjusted the backstay tension by any chance? I lashed my dinghy to my twin backstays, thus inadvertantly tensioning them. The result was a bit more mast bend than usual which was enough to prevent the sail furling, except with a lot of winch power. Fortunately I realised the problem and adjusted the lashing, after which the sail furled easily by hand on my 34 footer.

 

[willtaylor]

Re: Some thoughts...

Clearly there are matters of principle, prejudice, and opinion. The point about second hand boats is well made. Most of our sailing decisions turn out to be compromises and we make the best of what we have - maybe even develop justifications for what we've bought (remember Skoda drivers in the past).

I recently bought a Moody 333 with Maxi-Roach gear. It's stiffer to get out and in than I hoped (needs the small winch) but seems to roll rather neatly. She certainly has roach, sails OK on all points and provides very easy adjustment to the draft of the sail on the move. Despite the unexpected stiffness, which I think may be helped with some new sheaves, and which is certainly diminished if you free the boom, it is a very convenient way of reducing sail from the cockpit. My wife and I are quite fit, but we're getting older and are pleased to think that this inherited device will prolong our sailing lives.

The point of the original enquiry is that he has a perfectly straightforward mechanical device that is not working properly. The mechanics are clear; there must be a way to solve the problem. Some of the advice here addresses that.

Will Taylor

 

[mldpt]

Re: Some thoughts...

Hi Ian.
What make of inmast furling do you have, I have a westerly corsair which had retro fit in mast when I bought her in 1993, I never had any problem even though the sails were very tired. I did get another set made and they were fine I suppose I will have sailed 15,000 miles with that rig, then I lost my mast off Lands end about four years ago so had the boat re rigged with Kemp Seldon inmast and its been great main advantage of the new rig over the old rig, is the size of the mast cross section, now my boat is not the one in the marina heeling over more than all the others in a beam blow.
I have sailed most of the last ten years solo, and I feel very happy leaving reefing until the last minute and also can shake out a reef in seconds, I can as much main out as I want or as little for tha matter, its so easy to balance the Genoa and main. where as most other reefing methods you are limited to three predeternmined setting. I am sure my sail is far from as efficient as the traditional reefing system, but I feel that I am in control most of the time. I have noticed several boats with fully battened mains stuck half way down, ( or is it up). I have also got a vang which prevents the boom droping which may help furling as the boom is never too low, hope you get yours working ok soon, possible your main hallard is too tight to cause the fullness at the luff.
Regards Mike.

 

[ronniewood]

All the bits of advice are relevant but if your sail has reached the genuinely baggy stage then you are beat... as we recently discovered. A recut helped for a year or so, then it was a new sail. Still need to follow the rules though :
Good hayard tension, backstay off, topping lift on, keep light tension on outhaul while rolling.
We bought our boat (mainly for cruising) with in mast reefing fitted and appreciate the ease of handling and range of adjustment available. Agree performance suffers slightly but can live with the trade off.

 

[samwise]

Re: Some thoughts...

We have an EasyReef MaxiRoach in mast reefing on the Sadler 29 we acquired this season. Thus far it has been brilliant. Vertical battens help to provide an excellent sail shape and the roll-in procedure has so far been no problem.
For the single-handed sailor and for people like ourselves sailing as a family with two adults and a couple of nippers it is ideal.
However ... Were we going deep offshore I would still have concerns about righting moments with all that extra weight aloft on a boat that was not designed to accommodate it . Further I would also be worried if it did lock up and we were in a bad weather situation, how would we reduce sail. I think, in those circumstances, a good slab reef system has no real rivals.

 

[bob_tyler]

Re: Some thoughts...

"However ... Were we going deep offshore I would still have concerns about righting moments with all that extra weight aloft on a boat that was not designed to accommodate it "

Surely the answer to this is in-boom reefing - the modern version of the old (60s 70s) roller reefing.

If it jams, you should at least be able to reach it without pretending to be a monkey.