In Mast Furling - How stiff is too stiff?

[Kylora]

From a couple of the comments, and a glimpse of the red roofs, I can guess where she is.

One of the Moody 346 which was for sale in the same marina had an afterfit in mast reefing, don't know what make.

She might have sold now so you might not be able to try it for feel, unless you find the new owner.

It wasn't Orion. It was the other one.

Ash

 

[Kylora]

Don't want to chance an edit on my phone.

"Out of the Blue" is the 346 with in mast reefing.

Just round the corner, towards the office, from you.

Ash

 

[Kylora]

When I saw " inmast" , I really mean behind the mast.

Ash

 

[jac]

Provided the sail is loose footed, there is no reason why the boom needs to be at 90 degrees to the mast. I have Kemp/ Selden in-mast, not an add-on, and almost never need to use a winch, for either out or in. I have no battens.
Remember that the luff is effectively in a foil, so doesn't need much luff tension. Too much tension can make it difficult.

Generally yes - but the maxi roach instructions are very specific about the 90 degrees otherwise it can foul up a treat due to the battens not going in parallel to the furling spar. Don't ask me how I know this but several hours up the mast trying to fix it has seared that fact into my brain.

 

[Paul_S123]

Thanks for the replies so far...some reassuring information.

The original owner said that it worked like this for the time he owned the boat 10 years and wasn't showing signs of being too concerned. I like things to work right though. Some great points to try on this post. Thanks for this.

I will note, that when I was putting the sail away, the battens SEEMED to be furling into the mast not parallel with the mast. It seemed like the base of the sail/batten was going into the furler a few inches before the top of the batten. I guess this would support the argument that the boom was too low. The boom seemed to be at 90 degrees from the mast.

 

[jac]

Thanks for the replies so far...some reassuring information.

The original owner said that it worked like this for the time he owned the boat 10 years and wasn't showing signs of being too concerned. I like things to work right though. Some great points to try on this post. Thanks for this.

I will note, that when I was putting the sail away, the battens SEEMED to be furling into the mast not very perpendicular. It seemed like the base of the sail/batten was going into the furler a few inches before the top of the batten. I guess this would support the argument that the boom was too low. The boom seemed to be at 90 degrees from the mast.

Not sure you mean perpendicular to the mast?

But if the battens don't line up parallel with the furling spar you will effectively be trying to roll the batten round the furling spar, If your maxi roach battens are like mine, then that is a bloody difficult job. As a quick check - try removing the battens and then furling - make sure you put the batten pocket ends back into the pocket before doing so. If it is the battens, then this should make furling massively easier.

The only other area to consider is the lead from furling gear to winches via any turning blocks. Are they all decent blocks and with minimal change of direction or is it adding a whole heap of friction into the system. Some of ours were knackered and out of alignment when we bought, together with stiff lines. An hour cleaning, lubing and re sorting may make a huge difference. If it doesn't ( and you have released tension in the halyard / backstay then it's a furler issue.

The question is then, what to do about it. I assume that the sail goes up a groove in the furling spar so adjusting the sail to make the battens parallel with the spar will mean major surgery to the sail. Maxi Roach went out of business a few years ago so I suspect the sail is not in the first flush of youth and you have to question whether it is best to chuck money at an old sail or instead get a new one made.

From what you've said i'm not sure if you have bought the boat or whether it is still subject to a sea trial. I would put this into the category of a fault only revealed by the sea trial and do further investigations before completing the purchase. If removing battens & easing tension and cleaning / lubing all blocks doesn't fix it, a visit by the local rigger to take a look may be required in case the spar itself is knackered. If it is the spar or the sail that will need extensive work then I think you need to revisit the price with the vendor ( unless you knew this already) as you should be able to expect the furling gear to work.

 

[Paul_S123]

You are quite correct...I didn't mean perpendicular, no more early morning posting for me :sleeping:

I have signed a contract for the boat, but it is subject to inspection and survey (survey is being done next week).

After watching this video of how it should be working, I realise mine (with one cranking hard as possible while another is at the mast pulling it out) has serious issues.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I viewed a Moody 40 this weekend which has in-mast, the system is 20 years old but has been serviced regularly. We only tested the furling mechanism on the mooring, minimal wind. It was child's play to run the sail in and out, using either the 'endless' control line in the cockpit or with a winch handle in the mechanism at the mast. Literally one finger to operate it. So imho the OP's system definitely needs attention. Simply because 'it's always been like that' doesn't mean it's right.

 

[mjcoon]

... As a quick check - try removing the battens and then furling - ...

Surely that should not be necessary: if the battens are a major part of the problem then the sail will come in/out easily as soon as all the battens are out of the slot!

If the stiffness is constant however much sail is exposed, surely the problem is the mechanics of the furling mechanism, not the sail?

Mike.

 

[jac]

Surely that should not be necessary: if the battens are a major part of the problem then the sail will come in/out easily as soon as all the battens are out of the slot!

If the stiffness is constant however much sail is exposed, surely the problem is the mechanics of the furling mechanism, not the sail?

Mike.

Fair point - however I find ( especially when head to wind) that the wind does help it come out so how would you tell how much was due to no batten and how much to wind assistance.

It's only a 5 minute job to pop them in and out so should give you a clearer idea.

 

[jac]

You are quite correct...I didn't mean perpendicular, no more early morning posting for me :sleeping:

I have signed a contract for the boat, but it is subject to inspection and survey (survey is being done next week).

After watching this video of how it should be working, I realise mine (with one cranking hard as possible while another is at the mast pulling it out) has serious issues.

That ones a little easier than mine - must wash and lube my blocks!

As a matter of interest - can someone at the mast furl / unfurl the sail? If they can, this locates the problem as between furling gear and winch rather than in the furling gear itself.

You will possibly find that the whole system is a bit neglected ( the fact that the problem has been ignored for 10 years is not a great sign) so there may be multiple small glitches that all need to be ironed out to make it work smoothly.

 

[Giblets]

I feel a slight reduction in the asking price coming on (subject to survey of course)!

 

[dunedin]

I viewed a Moody 40 this weekend which has in-mast, the system is 20 years old but has been serviced regularly. We only tested the furling mechanism on the mooring, minimal wind. It was child's play to run the sail in and out, using either the 'endless' control line in the cockpit or with a winch handle in the mechanism at the mast. Literally one finger to operate it. So imho the OP's system definitely needs attention. Simply because 'it's always been like that' doesn't mean it's right.

Did it have vertical battens? If not very differnt case

 

[Sticky Fingers]

^ No, bog standard non-battened sail. Fair point.

 

[Paul_S123]

To answer the point about someone being at the sail being able to unfurl it..no, it took the combination of the seller at the mast pulling it out and me on the winch, grinding for all it's worth...to get it out.

I had a word with saturn sails at Kip. He immediately said the combination of a maxi roach vertically battened sail, going into a retrofitted bolt on furler was incorrect. He was not surprised at all that it was stiff. I asked him about removing the battens and he thought the sail would need to be re-cut to stop it collapsing in a light wind. He felt the best fix (if I wanted to stick with the in mast) would be a new sail..no battens made as flat as possible, coated with a teflon finish. Without him seeing it, he thought it seemed like it would fix the problem. Obviously that is subject to checking the mechanical action of the furler.

Quoted about £1,200, which is not life changing, but I feel I shouldn't have to bear the entire cost of this.

 

[Tranona]

Not entirely convinced about this explanation. Easyreef and Maxiroach were the same person so would be surprised in principle that the sail and gear together would not work. However, do agree that a flat sail properly cut works easiest in terms of furling and unfurling.

If you are going to the expense of a new sail, though it will be almost as cheap to take the furling extrusion off and revert to battened mainsail and a stack pack. Although I love in mast (on my second boat with it), only if it works properly. The Moody was not designed for it and would be better without it!

 

[dunedin]

If you are going to the expense of a new sail, though it will be almost as cheap to take the furling extrusion off and revert to battened mainsail and a stack pack. Although I love in mast (on my second boat with it), only if it works properly. The Moody was not designed for it and would be better without it!

Yes, a furling main without battens will have a lot less sail area than the boat was designed for. And less than the current Maxi-Roach with battens. So a fully battened main would be better than a no batten furler.

But perhaps try to resolve the current one first. I still think the creases in the sail near the top won't help, and perhaps could be flattened by tensioning the battens

 

[Pete7]

The Moody was not designed for it and would be better without it!

Not true and my Moody 31 has inmast reefing from new with a Kemp reefing mast. The boat is well balanced with a standard inmast main so I am not sure the extra roach with battens is required or achieves much given its a masthead rig and the real power comes from the Genoa.

 

[Elemental]

My Beneteau 351 had a Z Spar in mast furling setup. Fitted from new. I went through a long learning process of how best to manage it. Long story short, there were four key points that were crucial to smooth operation

• Correct angle of boom to mast during furl and unfurl
• Correct tension (esp. during the furl) of the outhaul
• Frictionless turning blocks
• Frequent (and liberal) application of McLube to the entire sail (helps get a tight roll by allowing the turns of sail to slip over each other and helps prevent any loose folds that get caught in the slot from binding)

If all the above were correct the the sail would come out/furl using un-winched outhaul/furling tensions. In a seaway or heavy weather or when reducing sail at night, it was difficult to get right. A new sail to replace the one that had stretched also helped. Answering the OP's original question, it's not 'right' that so much effort is required. It needs sorting out before completion of the sale. However I also expect the OP to have to keep refining this system for years to come.
Thread Drift: Following a catastophic rig failure (new mast) I had the boat re-rigged with a conventional slab system, and stackpack. Haven't looked back. The yacht sails better, less heeling with more sail area. With all lines led aft it's safe, simple and effortless. My advice to the OP would be rather than to consider a new furling sail, I'd remove the furling setup, consult a good sailmaker and rigging company and re-instate the original slab set-up. Properly designed and implemented it's easier than furling and far more seaman like (IMNSHO).

 

[NormanS]

My Beneteau 351 had a Z Spar in mast furling setup. Fitted from new. I went through a long learning process of how best to manage it. Long story short, there were four key points that were crucial to smooth operation

• Correct angle of boom to mast during furl and unfurl
• Correct tension (esp. during the furl) of the outhaul
• Frictionless turning blocks
• Frequent (and liberal) application of McLube to the entire sail (helps get a tight roll by allowing the turns of sail to slip over each other and helps prevent any loose folds that get caught in the slot from binding)

If all the above were correct the the sail would come out/furl using un-winched outhaul/furling tensions. In a seaway or heavy weather or when reducing sail at night, it was difficult to get right. A new sail to replace the one that had stretched also helped. Answering the OP's original question, it's not 'right' that so much effort is required. It needs sorting out before completion of the sail. However I also expect the OP to have to keep refining this system for years to come.
Thread Drift: Following a catastophic rig failure (new mast) I had the boat re-rigged with a conventional slab system, and stackpack. Haven't looked back. The yacht sails better, less heeling with more sail area. With all lines led aft it's safe, simple and effortless. My advice to the OP would be rather than to consider a new furling sail, I'd remove the furling setup, consult a good sailmaker and rigging company and re-instate the original slab set-up. Properly designed and implemented it's easier than furling and far more seaman like (IMNSHO).

Yes, yes, and go back to oakum and tar.