In-mast furling - conversion back to slab?

[neil1967]

This may be a numpty question, but is it possible (and financially viable) to convert an in-mast furling (1980's selden) mast back to using conventional sails? I am not comfortable with the idea of old in mast furling systems for an extended cruising boat, but one of the otherwise desirable boats that I am looking at has in-mast furling. Changing the mast would, I suspect, be excessively expensive.

Thanks

Neil

 

[Seajet]

I can't see any reason not to have slab reefing, and I personally don't like the idea of in-mast reefing either.

I have to be frank, if you're asking this while thinking of extended cruising that's a little worrying; hopefully you'll stay local for a while ?

You will probably be best off with a new mainsail however ( in-mast jobs usually lack the roach of a 'proper' main ! Also tend to be loose footed, while a normal main will be in a track on the boom ) and will presumably need to fit the blocks for the slab reefs on the boom, maybe deck organisers etc as well to bring the lines to the cockpit if that's what you want.

Do remember the reefing blocks need to be positioned to pull aft as well as down; personally I prefer to just pull the reef clew down, and go to the mast to pull the reef luff cringle onto its' horn, some people like 'jiffy' single line reefing but that seems a lot of friction to me.

Talking of friction, if at all possible use ball bearing blocks anywhere you can for the reefing set-up, makes life a huge deal easier !

 

[Tranona]

Doubt it will be possible using the same mast as there is no mast track to take a conventional main.

Well maintained and setup with a purpose designed sail there is a lot in favour of inmast for long distance cruising - indeed for any sailing where the final ounce of speed is not required.

Suggest you talk to a sailmaker with experience in making serious cruising sails for inmast reefing.

 

[Seajet]

I was thinking, at that age it's probably an add-on furling gear ?

Personally I dislike a couple of points with in -mast reefing; weight stays up high, and if & when it goes wrong, one is truly R**erd ! Unable to lower, raise or otherwise reef the sail.

Nothing to do with high performance, though having efficient sails is the result of many centuries' evolution and may save the boat & crew in desperate straits...

 

[wilkinsonsails]

I think that Selden did an add on gear.There may be a small slide track on the side on the mast groove, which can be used for a conventional mainsail.Booms are much easier to retro fit.
A couple of my customers have used the track and changed back.
Cindy

 

[jontifosi]

Would it be possible to add reefs on the mast instead of boom, so if it all went wrong you could still reef it in? (A theory from a novice).
If not find someone with the same boat who fancies in mast

 

[merlin3688]

If its not an add on system then the mast cannot be converted to slab reefing, most inmast masts have a track up the back for a trisail but this is not strong enough as no support on one side, if add on then possible to remove it and fill in holes with rivets.
sailingschoolandrigging

 

[Pagetslady]

If the mast is 1980 it will almost certainly be a retro fit, once removed you will have a normal mast, what boat is this on?. I have a Westerly Corsair which when I bought her in 1992 she had a Baymar retro fit in mast on her, I did many thousands of miles with that rig, but in 1999 I lost the lot overboard off Mousehole The insurance then replaced the lot with a proper Seldon inmast rig which I now have vertical battened main on, I sail single handed almost all the time and love the rig I do several thousand miles a year mostly under sail, I am retired so have loads of time.
Mike

 

[neil1967]

Thanks all. I have found some information on other web fora as well, most of which in a similar vein. SeaJet - I appreciate the significant differences between in mast and slab reefing - I have used both, ranging from 26' to 67' yachts - it was the practicality of conversion that I was unsure of.

Regards

Neil

 

[Talulah]

Need to know a bit more about the section of mast.
Our 1990 Selden mast with in-mast furling also has a slot for hauling up a traditional main/try sail.
If I was converting it to a traditional main for the long term I would investigate what size cars would fit up the main slot. The boom could be easily converted for reefing lines.
Hence on our boat I would have no issues in converting to a traditional sail.
The previous owner had a traditional main as back up.

 

[jwilson]

This may be a numpty question, but is it possible (and financially viable) to convert an in-mast furling (1980's selden) mast back to using conventional sails? I am not comfortable with the idea of old in mast furling systems for an extended cruising boat, but one of the otherwise desirable boats that I am looking at has in-mast furling. Changing the mast would, I suspect, be excessively expensive.

Thanks

Neil

I have sailed quite some distance on a 42 ft boat with an in-mast main, but an external trach fitted just to one side of the sail slot for the inmast main. We used a fully battened slab-reef main for racing on the external track, and for cruising or heavy weather just used the internal furling one

 

[Seajet]

I'd have thought the side track was for a Plan B trysail in very heavy weather ?

 

[E39mad]

Seldon produced in mast furling masts in the late 1980's. Would have thought the best thing to do would be to attach a Harken style ball bearing car track subject to not weakening the mast by drilling so many holes in it.

 

[GTFC]

If the mast is 1980 it will almost certainly be a retro fit, once removed you will have a normal mast, what boat is this on?. I have a Westerly Corsair which when I bought her in 1992 she had a Baymar retro fit in mast on her, I did many thousands of miles with that rig, but in 1999 I lost the lot overboard off Mousehole The insurance then replaced the lot with a proper Seldon inmast rig which I now have vertical battened main on, I sail single handed almost all the time and love the rig I do several thousand miles a year mostly under sail, I am retired so have loads of time.
Mike

I am looking for a corsair to do the same thing. My feeling is that "in-mast hesitancy", to use an in vogue phrase, is anecdotal, a resistance to new fangled methods (Rya & electronic navigation?) or results from sub optimal management and execution. Newer systems surely have ironed out all the creases by now( forgive the pun)?
Can I ask do you have a solid vang to keep the boom at the optimum angle for furling?
Thanks

 

[GTFC]

I have sailed quite some distance on a 42 ft boat with an in-mast main, but an external trach fitted just to one side of the sail slot for the inmast main. We used a fully battened slab-reef main for racing on the external track, and for cruising or heavy weather just used the internal furling one

Interesting, is it because the performance advantage of a mainsail with a decent belly outweighs the disadvantage of having the furled weight aloft or do you emove the furled main completely when racing?

 

[roaringgirl]

I am looking for a corsair to do the same thing. My feeling is that "in-mast hesitancy", to use an in vogue phrase, is anecdotal, a resistance to new fangled methods (Rya & electronic navigation?) or results from sub optimal management and execution. Newer systems surely have ironed out all the creases by now( forgive the pun)?
Can I ask do you have a solid vang to keep the boom at the optimum angle for furling?
Thanks

My boat has a fully battened main and bat-cars on a track. I recently took a family on my boat, they had just sold their boat (with in-mast furling) on which they crossed the Atlantic. At the end of the journey we sailed up to the mooring on the main alone and dropped the main, they were stunned how easy it was (yes it is a pig to raise the thing without battens getting caught in lazy jacks!). They were also surprised that a cruising boat could sail at 45 degrees off the wind.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Only time I've had problems with in-mast furling in is where the boat concerned had a shot mainsail, the dacron had lost its stiffness and the sail had stretched giving it excessive camber - the sail was too baggy and loose to furl properly - the excess loose and flexible material folded inside the mast, and when unfurling, the exiting sail could pick up folds of sail and pull them out through the slot, jamming the furler.

If the furler is properly serviced and regularly checked, (and you know how to use it - boom position etc.) and you don't use sails past their sell-by-date, there is not much more to go wrong than on the furling genoa.

In the end, there are pros and cons to both systems, and having sailed with both systems, I personally prefer a well serviced in-mast with good sails - simply for the infinite flexibility of sail size, and the speed with which it can be reefed and un-reefed - without changing course if your boat is set up to be able to tension the outhaul as you unfurl. When furled, that's it - on my selden mast there is a ratchet lock I can flip to lock the sail in the mast and then it can no longer deploy.

I like that I don't have to tie off the main-halyard to prevent it re-deploying or slapping against the mast, or walk the length of the boom zipping the sail into it's bag and tidying up the folds and reefing lines - not to mention teasing each batten past the lazy-jacks when hoisting - and I don't like the standing water that collects in the folds of the sail when it rains.

Obviously, if you've made your decision and desperately want the traditional main with a stack-pack then it's a personal choice and needs to be costed out, you may well get a good price for your in-mast rig as I for one would swap from stack-pack to furling in a heartbeat.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I have sailed both and over long distances. In my estimation the in mast variety is really not worth the effort or expense and a well laid out slab reefing system is equally as efficient. The additional weight aloft does not do the boat any favour, whether cruising or racing. I know of a perfectly lovely R. Clark that was ruined by the addition of furling gear. To note: the after market behind-the-mast varieties are aerodynamic atrocities.

I know of a 50' Hunter that got into serious trouble returning from Hawaii when their in-mast main furler jammed in heavy weather.

Slab reefing allows you to carry full battens which makes a more efficient sail. VPPs commonly give a 15% performance credit for full battens - about as much as for a feathering prop.

Many new sails are loose-footed these days. When I questioned my Dutch sailmaker about how we would attach the foot on our new sails, he was quite astounded that I should ask: "We don't make them with pants anymore," he said. Consequently, our new, full- battened main and mizzen came with a mighty roach and "sans culottes". The full battens added 50sqft to the main (20%) and 25sqft to the mizzen (25%). With the lazy jacks and full battens, dropping sail is fast and painless.

 

[Tranona]

The additional weight aloft does not do the boat any favour, whether cruising or racing. I know of a perfectly lovely R. Clark that was ruined by the addition of furling gear. To note: the after market behind-the-mast varieties are aerodynamic atrocities.

As you rightly point out add on systems and adding furling to boats that were never designed for them will add weight aloft and may well have an effect on performance and stability. However this is simply not true of boats designed and built with furling sails. Do you really think that designers such as Frers who designs HRs which in the 40' and over are almost exclusively Selden in mast furling are not aware of the weight of the rig (which is not actually very different from a slab reefing rig) and take that into account when designing the boat? The stability figures on my Farr designed boat are exactly the same whichever rig is fitted.

There is a perfectly legitimate argument about performance differences and possibly sail handling convenience, although over the years developments in gear and sails have changed the strength of these arguments in both directions - that is battened sails have become easier to handle and sail developments have improved sailing performance on in mast rigs.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Do you really think that designers such as Frers who designs HRs which in the 40' and over are almost exclusively Selden in mast furling are not aware of the weight of the rig (which is not actually very different from a slab reefing rig) and take that into account when designing the boat? The stability figures on my Farr designed boat are exactly the same whichever rig is fitted.

Not sure I suggested any of that, but regardless, having a sail up adds top weight, whether the designer considered it in his calculations or not.

A few years ago an Oceanis 40 capsized in the Biscay, drowning a crew. The subsequent inquiry determined that the furling gear and other add-ons, not part of the original stability calculations, had contributed tho the low AVS and subsequent capsize. I'm not sure the OP posted his boat type or when it was designed and built.

That said, I have every confidence that both Farr and Frers spec their current designs properly and account for such things.