In all but name !!!

Re: GPS or paper

I'm a bit bored with this argument. I agree, martyn, altho i am by no means sure that pete/happy does agree, does he?

There is no doubt that the paper-based theory is needed: Yes, i use calculators too, but that does not mean that i cannot carry out long multiplication without one. I know how to do it manually so i know what "looks right" from a gps/calculator, I understand when there are exceptional circumstances, I can navigate or help/show others how to navigate in their own boats with needing my own special bits of kit on board as a crutch, and for lots of other reasons.

Lots of other aspects that peter (seemingly alone) denounces YM theory as ancient and irrrelevant, although without any specific examples. As usual, wisdom might guide one in the opposite direction...



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Well we seem to be on the same lines, and the fact that I am spending my winter Tuesday evenings at night school doing the yachtmaster theory shows that I do understand the importance of obtaining the knowledge. I am sure that I will be richer in knowledge knowing both systems, but not everyone can commit that amount of time and only really have a chart plotter. Perhaps an electronic navigation course would be a good idea to fill a gap, and at least enable those who have been fortunate enough to buy a plotter get the best from it. I would even consider going on that as I am sure I do not get the full potential from my Garmin yet.

Better than nothing IMHO /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
If the RYA are behind, it is behind since 1945 when Deca was first invented. Electronic navigation is not new and was first used in the D Day landings. I think the reason that the RYA avoids GPS is because it's to simple. Armed with a plotter as well. Theres nearly no training to do. Putting the RYA and there course in emediate jepardy!!

I will state that the need to understand paper charts and conventional navigation is imerative. Before some wise guy jumps up and start spouting about seamanship ETC ETC.../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn
 
I'm not actually that sure they are aware that there are boats which dont need masts and sails!!

Martyn

<hr width=100% size=1>The Dream is Alive
 
Re: powerboat awareness

um, well, i spose the sailyboatiness nav is the same altho a bit tougher, since leeway and tides are relaitively a whole load more important. Mind you, on one engine or at 8 knots which somemotorboats do tops, it would still be important and 40 knots ain't always an option inthe channel.

Note that YM theory does ask moboish wind with/against tide questions which might flummox a yottie. The flash cards also assume you are with/without power and hence sailyboaters have to know the correct give way rules when they are under sail and again if they are under power, as do the moboers.

Of course, there should be no prob in asking slightly saily-theory questions - many car drivers pass a manual car test yet invariably drive auto cars. I would also venture that whilst sailing fast as poss and winning a saily race is is quite hard, sailing moderately fast is piss easy, apart from the boathandly marina bits which moboers may well be much better at than raggies - qv ex-moboer "nicho" around here.

I see no prob in the joint theory test, and perhaps even some vaildity in requiring both sail and power to have spent (say) three hours in the other type of vessel to appreciate the different probs.

I totally disgaree about the comparison of YM with MCSE (microsoft qualification) a decent putery person should be able to get the ticket fairly easily - msoft have a vested interest in passing as many as possible, whereas no such vested interest from the RYA.

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dont KNOW what order you are doing your course material. I did the chartwork last term. At the beginning I too was frustrated about the exciting implications of nodding along at 4knts and having to account for tidal drift and so on. But there was much in the coursework on charts that looking back a few months later I realise is extremely useful, and I am far more aware of techniques I can use that dont necessarily involve rummaging around with charts themselves. (In fact you need an oil tanker to find a table big enough for Chart 1, dont you). And although you may have the interest and the means to spend money of chartplotters and then electronic charts, for many people £15 is a pretty good alternative, even if it is on paper.
Also, I think the practicality of paper charts on a 21ft powerboat is acknowledged as somewhat limited. But not everyone has that size of boat. In fact, the course does go on to qualify that for fast moving boats, the charts are of more practical more use in preperation of the passage, and as a support during it.
While agreeing that the course needs updating to recognise the value that electronic navagation has brought, you also need to know the principals behind. Look at that massive posting we had a while ago about GPS defaulting to the next waypoint. I didnt know that, and I wonder how many others hadnt realised. You can ask yourself why, since the use/reliance on electronics, RNLI report such a massive increase in groundings
You also have to bear in mind that the course material is to assist in the safety of all, and that means sometimes, some laborious and to some unnecessary, material has to be included.


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Yes, but a lot of people are put off these long and expensive courses, all I am saying is that you could train someone much quicker to use a plotter, than all the paraphanalea (is that how you spell it?), wasted time and farting around required to correctly plot a course on paper. Better to have more people that can use their plotters and laptops than a mimimum few who fancy trudging out every blinking Tuesday evening to sit in classes over the winter. Anyway I think the paper chart is history, it is a total waste of time in MY circumstances, I don't even have a table on the bloody boat. Anyway everyone to their own, I have put in the effort and learnt the paper way, but as I said they will be staying in their waterproof container awaiting the dreaded collapse of the entire Global Positioning System, mind you they are waterproof and rip proof charts anyway /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

As for the RYA, they are failing to provide adequate training for the modern boater IMHO, but then again they are run by people who have lost the plot, again IMHO. Try ordering a book from them, you would have to wait weeks to get it, then they say that Spring is always busy and it could take 6 weeks to get the order, why not get more staff in Spring then? b..llocks, give the contract to Amazon.com and let them show them how to do things properly. A pure waste of space IMHO, and I for one will not be renewing my membership this year, nor do I need any stupid meaningless title of whatever sort to boost my ego, I just want to learn as much as I can to be safe for my family and myself.

<font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Yes, I agree that all new technology should be used when ever possible but everyone should know how to use charts as well. I have a fixed ships GPS running from the ships power and also a seperate one that if the ships power failed could run from internal batteries. I then use a paper chart in conjunction with these. However, I don't know of any chart plotters that run on internal batteries so if it goes tits up what then? Switch to your battery powered GPS but you don't understand charts so your in bother now.
I think the RYA don't really have to teach about GPS and plotters in any great detail as they are quite easy to learn about by yourself. Just touch on the subjects briefly so that its students are aware of there existance. Or yacht master instructor did used to tell us that as soon as we started going to sea we would use GPS as our primary nav tool but by learning the old way of doing it we would be able to understand how the GPS is working and what it is doing......and he was right.

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I use a Garmin 176C which is both internal and external power, that is the beauty of it. I always keep a selection of spare batteries rechargeable and standard which come in useful.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
I'll take the risk of being Kimmerised
H1, youve had a boat for less than a year & now think that you are the oracle on all things boaty and qualified to comment negatively on systems that have proved their worth over many years.
May I gently suggest that you wait until you have a little experience to add to your theory before you fire off and trash existing practical systems.
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dons nomex and kevlar helmet

<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt
 
Yeah - I think "Day Skipper" and "Yachtmaster" differentiate themsleves very well by name, and portray themselves as what they are. I certainly would be embarrassed at my own pretentiousness if I were to call myself a Yachtmaster, given my current qualifications. Equally if I had earned, through hard graft, the qualification of yachtmaster, I would be proud to use it.

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>
 
Dave
Yes I agree I too would be proud to call myself even Day skipper. Maybe one day I will have the time and inclination to do a course. The point of my post was to find out if people really were that shallow as the article suggests and were not actually going in for courses purely because of the title. Seems to me that anyone who takes that stance is doing the course for some kind of "spot me" reason rather than for the qualification itself.Now I for one do not think this is true, some replys seem to indicate otherwise but I feel they are in the minority. I really dont see what the hell is wrong with the title "day skipper" anyway.

Regards - Ian

<hr width=100% size=1>Play the best game you can with the cards you've been dealt ! ! !
 
Ah! that's the problem, you are so entrenched in the 'system' you can't see the mess it is. I have come in with fresh eyes and have seen it is a load of twaddle that has no logic to it. As I have said, there needs to be legislation and rules, I appreciate that and I have learnt these, but it doesn't mean it makes any sense. As an analytical person of reasonable intelligence I can assure you that it makes no sense, although if you learn it it does it's job. BUT how many people are put off learning such nonsense, when there could be much easier and more modern recognisable signals to do the same job e.g. flashing neon signs saying 'At Anchor' /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif. Too late though, we are in a mess so deep we can't get out.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Hear Hear !!
I managed, by a lot of bribery, to get the "Coastal Skipper" ticket. My reasons for doing the RYA courses were:- a) To learn more about the theoretical & practical sides of boating.
b) To be able to "flash" my "qualifications" in order to charter both here and abroad.
c) To fill in boring Winter evenings and have some practical fun.

I am under no illusions about my abilities and so wouldn't admit to these paper qualifications unless specifically asked. To be honest I don't think the syllabus and practical are very onerous, but learning the contents do give you a good basis from which to start on the never ending Experience Curve.

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Happy your are an inexperienced seaman and posting complete cr*p again. May I respectfully advise that you refraining post such rubbish !! That way fellow posters will only think THINK you're an IDIOT!!!! (Sorry Kim pull it if you like but it had to be said ) IMHO of course------ but probably endorsed by many other posters !!

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Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

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<hr width=100% size=1>Alex

boat2.jpg

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mad-als.com>http://www.mad-als.com</A>
 
first back to the nomenclature.. you dont have to do much of this yachtmaster theory to know why its called that, and maybe some of H1 frustration is that so much of the course is for yachties.I could well imagine that more "traditional" navigation is needed if you cant rely on your trusty V8 (no diesels ,perlease!) to help you out, and have to rely on wind and tide. Are you seriously suggesting that every single boat on the water and every skipper should learn a new system of visual and aural signals because you think the present one is nonsensical? I cant recall any course I ve ever done that was 100pct what suited me;its always a case of taking what value you can. I totally agree that the YM theory needs updating, especially for mobos, but I m certainly alot more knowledgeable(and safer) now. I think one of the great values of all this traditional work (or maybe,the tutor) is understanding that the successful reliance on an electronic device depends on an understanding of the navagation fundamentals behind, and that is not going to be in the chartplotter manual. Sure, this could also be done on a pc using electronic charts, rather than a paper one and a pencil. But how can you run the course omiting paper chartwork? How many people have charts and not a chartplotter? 90 pct maybe?

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Ok, some of the theory is aimed purely at yotties, but a lot is of practical consideration to powerboaters as well, not everyone has the latest colour plotters on their boats, and sometimes it easier to refer to a chart than using the chartplotter,as for lights, shapes etc, these are internationally recognised, which allows you to safely navigate foreign waters or for foreigners to navigate safely here. Having modern flashing neons would IMHO not only look stupid, but would be dangerous, as would have no meaning elsewhere, or to foreign sailors.

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If you read my posts you will see that I understand we are stuck with the system we have due to the practicalities of changing it, that doesn't mean however that it cannot be discussed. The neon signs was a bit tongue in cheek and an attempt to bring a bit of humour into the debate. As for the charts used in the lessons, no problem with that, i just feel that some if not more input should be put into electronic navigation, as we have very little. I covered this by stating that perhaps an electronic navigation course should be made available by the RYA, one which I would be more than willing to attend as I feel there is far more to my plotter than I am aware of. As for paper charts, having used a plotter it is laughable to go back to that way of navigating, unless in an emergency, even though I have now been trained to use them. It is a bit like now going back to a manual typewriter and carbon paper. I understand some or perhaps more people do not have plotters, but I am sure that a lot of incidents are the cause of the lack of plotters. Until more of these safer electronic navigating aids are available at affordable prices I guess we will have to endure the errors and accidents caused by those who are unfortunate enough not to have them and do not know how to read a chart. At least a plotter shows you where you are on an electronic chart, that has to be better than being untrained and faced with a paper chart and not knowing where you are /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Well. I dont tell anyone I'm a day skipper. But then I dont pretend to be a yacht master either. About 100000000000 miles latter...../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn
 
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