Elessar
Well-Known Member
if you follow the rules properly you have to put a screw though the sticker! The rules were obviously designed for a metal plate.
Importing used boat from the USA
- Thread starter MonArk
- Start date
if you follow the rules properly you have to put a screw though the sticker! The rules were obviously designed for a metal plate.
zarathustra
Well-Known Member
Assuming the boat was built pre 1999 and was built be a european boat company:
What about someone returning from USA to Ireland or UK, and deciding to buy a boat in US and sail it back. Can he leave the boat in US registration avoiding the red tape and VAT and other ridiculous fees?
Or if someone were to purchase a boat from US and sail it back and keep it under the radar so to speak to avoid the fees, what are his chances of a peaceful time?
There must be some ways around paying the ridiculous fees.
When american cruising sailors visit European ports do they hassled about VAT and CE marks etc?
And a US citizen who decided to sail a boat to Ireland or UK, and leave it here for a year or 2, perhaps for holidays with an intention to return it to US at some point? What are his VAT, CE red-tape implications?
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
To answer your question in detail go to the RYA site and it is all explained.
However, a summary
If a boat is imported into the EU by an EU resident then they have to comply with the law - that is pay VAT and (unless it is exempt, gain a CE mark). Not ridiculous at all - why should such a person be treated any differently from buying a boat in the EU?
There are exemptions. For example a returning resident or somebody taking up residence may be exempt if the boat is part of his chattels. And, no a genuine non EU visitor is not "hassled", but can apply for temporary importation into the EU and does not have to pay VAT or comply with RCD - but usage is limited and he cannot sell the boat in the EU.
If you read all the rules you will see they are very clear and logical.
BTW "registration" is irrelevant. Whether VAT is payable or CE mark required depends entirely on the nature of the transaction.
zarathustra
Well-Known Member
So if the boat isn't intended to be sold on, then it is possible to avoid the VAT (and yes I strongly believe it is both ridiculous and disgusting to have to pay yet more "tax/hard earned money" to the greedy establishment over here just because you bought a boat at a fair price from someone in USA or wherever, but that isn't what I want to get into here.)
I have been looking at european built boats for sale online from US and Canada, they are considerably less expensive than here. I wouldn't be interested in selling it on again. So, would you think it would be an advantage to have the boat registered in the name of a US citizen, for the purpose of not giving our overpaid/underworked government officials yet more of our money, (money they most thoroughly don't deserve in my opinion.)
How long does temporary importation to the EU last?
penfold
Well-Known Member
18 months, but this only applies to non-EU subjects. As for bilking HMRC, you're a braver man than me. If you kept your boat in Scotland or maybe Wales, you might never get asked for proof of VAT payment, but on the south coast the I imagine the chances of being inspected are high, as are the cost consequences if Inspector Knacker is not satisfied. CE on the other hand, on a boat built significantly before the cutoff in 1998 or whenever, who's going to check, or even know to check whether it was imported before or after an arbitrary date?
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
If you are an EU resident, it is a criminal offence to import a boat without paying duty and VAT. End of story. Whether you intend to sell it is irrelevant. Why should you not pay a tax, the same as anybody else?
In fact importing a boat (or other asset) is one of the few ways a private person can commit a VAT offence. Added to that the unpaid VAT also attaches to the boat, so HMRC could recover it from a subsequent owner. so you will appreciate that HMRC, who do not normally pursue ordinary boat owners might take an interest in a boat that has been imported.
Up to you whether you want to break the law or not!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
It seems a bit sneaky to use a tax designed for use on business transactions to take money from importers. Why not an import duty on yachts?
Has that been definitively shown? I have seen advice here that the liability stays with the person who incurred it, so at best there seems to be some confusion.
How would they know which boats had been imported?
I agree, by the way, that trying to evade tax due is daft.
chinita
Well-Known Member
"Why should you not pay a tax"
Presumably the initial purchaser paid the relevant Government or State Tax.
I also find the issue of paying tax twice for the same item somewhat opportunistic on the part of the Revenue.
If tax has been paid ANYWHERE and can be proven, that should be it.
Put the boot on the other foot, Take, as an example, Double Indemnity Insurance so we get two payments from different Companies for the same claim - that is illegal and we all accept that.
Presumably the initial purchaser paid the relevant Government or State Tax.
I also find the issue of paying tax twice for the same item somewhat opportunistic on the part of the Revenue.
If tax has been paid ANYWHERE and can be proven, that should be it.
Put the boot on the other foot, Take, as an example, Double Indemnity Insurance so we get two payments from different Companies for the same claim - that is illegal and we all accept that.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
VAT is a transaction tax, not a tax on assets, so if the transaction falls into the category of a "chargeable event", then VAT is due. Importing a boat is a chargeable event, whether it is by an individual or by way of business. If it were not so, no individual would buy a boat in the EU, but would import one from outside if they had a choice!
At the end of the day, it is only a private consumer that "pays" VAT, the trade only act as collectors.
Not suggesting anything about "fairness" as you can always find arguments as to why a tax is unfair to you.
As to whether HMRC will "find out" - difficult to avoid them if the boat is imported through commercial docks as they tend to notice things there. Probably more difficult for them if you sail back, but no doubt they have ways of finding offenders!
And yes, this is one of the peculiarities of VAT that the debt follows the boat in the same way as any other debt.
I am sure there are many in HMRC who would rather have an asset tax for yachts because of the potential traceability, but we don't so they have to make do with the complexities of VAT.
At the end of the day, it is only a private consumer that "pays" VAT, the trade only act as collectors.
Not suggesting anything about "fairness" as you can always find arguments as to why a tax is unfair to you.
As to whether HMRC will "find out" - difficult to avoid them if the boat is imported through commercial docks as they tend to notice things there. Probably more difficult for them if you sail back, but no doubt they have ways of finding offenders!
And yes, this is one of the peculiarities of VAT that the debt follows the boat in the same way as any other debt.
I am sure there are many in HMRC who would rather have an asset tax for yachts because of the potential traceability, but we don't so they have to make do with the complexities of VAT.
MonArk
Member
Importing - too good to be true?
I do love how these threads evolve!
So in summary, it looks like an exported Nauticat doesn't need to get a CE mark because it probably had one when it was built. That just leaves the purchase price, shipping costs, import duty and VAT.
The boat is for sale at just under USD35,000. It is a 1980 Nauticat 33 and IF the photos are up to date looks in good nick with a number of modern re-fit interior bits. I am curious/suspicious why it is so cheap of course because in the same apparent condition / age etc. it would be selling in high £50k to £60k mark.
Allowing say £5k shipping, 10% duty on purchase and shipping, VAT on the lot then we are still only up to high £30k mark.
Not for sale by a broker as far as I can see.
If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is?
I do love how these threads evolve!
So in summary, it looks like an exported Nauticat doesn't need to get a CE mark because it probably had one when it was built. That just leaves the purchase price, shipping costs, import duty and VAT.
The boat is for sale at just under USD35,000. It is a 1980 Nauticat 33 and IF the photos are up to date looks in good nick with a number of modern re-fit interior bits. I am curious/suspicious why it is so cheap of course because in the same apparent condition / age etc. it would be selling in high £50k to £60k mark.
Allowing say £5k shipping, 10% duty on purchase and shipping, VAT on the lot then we are still only up to high £30k mark.
Not for sale by a broker as far as I can see.
If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is?
DownWest
Well-Known Member
I understand (read it here?) that the mainstream EU builders don't CE mark their exports to the US as they sell at lower prices there and want to avoid them being brought back and spoiling the market. As with cars, the US won't pay the prices we are used to. So I suspect we subsidise their sales.
If your boat was used in the EU before export, prob OK. (and I saw the bit about built/ used) But as a straight export, maybe not.
If your boat was used in the EU before export, prob OK. (and I saw the bit about built/ used) But as a straight export, maybe not.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Does not need a CE mark as it was built in the EEA before such things were dreamed up. Would not meet the requirements of the RCD anyway, but that is irrelevant.
One of the articles I mentioned earlier was a detailed description of importing exactly that model and showing substantial savings. The main reason it is cheap in the US is because such old boats are not popular wheras they have mauntained their value in Europe and particularly UK. This might not be unconnected with the fact that a new one costs a cool £1/4 million and even 10 year old ones fetch £150k. So this could be one of those cases where it is worth it.
However, it could also mean the boat is a wreck because low value boats are often neglected and can be very expensive to put right. Rot in the wooden superstructure of this model is not unknown. So a trip out for a full inspection would be wise before you get too excited.
seanfoster
Well-Known Member
And treat it like a holiday so if it's not up to scratch, you haven't lost anything!
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Exactly!!
Stu
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Except if its in somewhere like Wisconsin!
MonArk
Member
Importing
My wife and daughter are already advocating that since it is in Florida!
The boat is a 1980 model so has the GRP top sides so the wood level / risk is greatly reduced.
I haven't been able to get an answer to my emails to the owner though and am clearly not going to do anything without improved communication. If it does improve I think it would be worth a survey before the holiday though unless they are a lot more expensive out there than here.
My wife and daughter are already advocating that since it is in Florida!
The boat is a 1980 model so has the GRP top sides so the wood level / risk is greatly reduced.
I haven't been able to get an answer to my emails to the owner though and am clearly not going to do anything without improved communication. If it does improve I think it would be worth a survey before the holiday though unless they are a lot more expensive out there than here.
TradewindSailor
Well-Known Member
When you look for a surveyor make sure is is a member of a reputable organisation .... SNAME and SAMS are the main one's over there.
zarathustra
Well-Known Member
Thousands of reasons, far too many to go into here, and not the purpose of the thread, but have you any idea how much of the tax-payers money is squandered/stolen. If the public had more backbone they would demand far lower taxation rates in my opinion. And I have evaded the taxmans clutches on numerous other occasions, and yes I am pleased about that
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Well, it does not please me. If you do not pay taxes you are required to pay, not only is it illegal but the rest of us have to pick up your share.
Please explain how "public having more backbone" would lead to lower taxes. I am sure if you had a viable answer you would get everybody's vote and be running the country.
ytd
Well-Known Member
lot's of secondhand US boats are being imported to Aust. There was about 20 35'-45' powerboats being worked on in the marina a couple of weeks ago. Besides shipping, duty and VAT (only 10% here) they need to have 110V electrics replaced and some other changes before they can be registered here. Even with all the changes they are much cheaper than Aust or Euro boats. I'm told it's because the GFC hit a lot of US boat owners hard and the market there is currently flooded.
